No, not the rubbing kind. The other kind. The kind which can cause all sorts of problems. The kind that can inspire a blog opinion.
Keep that in mind as you read. This is an OPINION. Because it is an OPINION, you have the right to disagree and to express that disagreement. I could be snarky about it and say, “This is my blog. I have my OPINION and it is the one that’s right so comments are closed.” That’s not my style. So now you have it. This is an OPINION.
I am an oddity. I know that. I am a 61 year old pastor who has never had a drink, a smoke or a chew (nor has my wife). I have used vulgar language in my past and have struggled with pornography. I say all that so you know I am not being judgmental. But I have noticed lately an increased interest and emphasis in both pastors, church, para-church employees, and others of talking about their use of tobacco and alcohol. I read of pastors who “take pride” in their openness about smoking cigars and drinking alcohol to their congregations and/or potential suitors, while this article really got me thinking, “Have we gone too far?” As I said, this is my OPINION, but I gotta wonder if in our efforts to be “relevant” (whatever that means) and not seem so “unhip” if we have taken too much liberty.
I realize the Bible condemns drunkennes and is virtually silent on social drinking. I used to condemn even social drinking. So I’ve come a long way. However, and this is my real issue, why are we flaunting it so much? The issue is not whether Jesus preached with the smell of alcohol on his breath (as one put it). The problem I have with this whole thing is “why are we talking/bragging/writing about it in the first place?” I realize the church condemnation of drinking and smoking has lessened in recent years (why is up for grabs), but do we have to flaunt the fact, or be proud of the fact, that we drink or smoke? It appears we put it out there-either for a reaction or for acceptance. Paul’s discussion in I Corinthians 8 has a lot to do with this very attitude. A person may not think it is wrong, but “take care this right of yours does not somehow become a stumblingblock to the weak.” I am mature enough in my faith to listen and discern this issue. But what about those who are not? I have members of the church I pastor who drink. Does that mean I need to in order to be “relevant”? If I need something to help me unwind, relax or calm down in the way of alcohol (as the above mentioned article says) does that not mean I am seeking some outward method of calming my inner spirit? Is that not what the Holy Spirit, prayer, and the Word are for?
I’ve exceeded my self-imposed 500 word limit so I will close this post (for now). Perhaps I will take it up again. But I’d like to hear what you think. Remember: this is my OPINION and it is not about the rightness or wrongness of drinking. It is about attitude. You are welcome to express yours.
I have absolutely no problem with folks enjoying a few beers or a glass or two of wine. I don’t see it being any different for a responsible adult than having a glass or two of tea or of Mt. Dew. I actually don’t drink alcohol all that much, in fact, pretty rarely. It is mostly an extra calorie thing than any sort of negative attitude toward it. In fact, I would have no problem whatsoever sitting down for a beer with my pastor, but he has never had a drink either.
I would be in the same boat as you Daniel. I didn’t use to be that way. As expressed, my concern is the attitude we seem to be conveying lately. As for Rob, I had read that about him as well. Reckon neither of us ought to even smell it. 🙂
It has always seemed odd to me that Christians would have a problem with alcoholic beverages. The first miracle involved creating an alcoholic beverage for an already well imbibed wedding celebration. One of his last acts was to offer an alcoholic beverage as representative of his blood. And as you say he no doubt preached with alcohol on his breath. Catholics and Lutherans have no prohibition or inhibition about drinking alcoholic beverages. So why do some Christians and not others? Obviously not because they ask WWJD. The answer to that is clear.
I don’t know any preachers or such that flaunt it. I do know a number of Catholic and Lutheran types that drink and smoke. And so did their grandfather, fathers, etc. They are not flaunting it, they are just enjoying it.
I certainly don’t put it out there for acceptance or a reaction. I don’t really care what someone else thinks about what I enjoy.
I don’t think alcohol will make you relevant. Suggesting God doesn’t approve may make you irrelevant though.
As for being a stumbling block to the weak my solution is to avoid weak people as much as possible. I would never drink in the company of a known recovering alcoholic but I might eat a candy bar in the presence of a fat lady. It is hard to know what someone’s weakness is.
Cheers
for years I tried to explain away the whole John 2 event with Jesus and the wedding feast. I can no longer do that. You tend to run in a different crowd than I do, Jeff, therefore the “relevance” of it will not matter. For me, I have been reading too much of an arrogance attitude and a “I’ll show you” attitude lately in my circles. You are certainly right about knowing what someone’s weakness might be. That could be one reason I would avoid drinking socially.
Bill, I think the problem is that, for some reason, these folks feel the need to over correct the issue. In their attempt to swing the pendulum, they go too far. Then they just kind of promote doing this to display their freedom. I imagine we all do this in some ways.
You may have hit on the real cause Larry- over correcting the issue. Pendulum swings happen a lot.
My pastor talks about this topic fairly often in much the same way as you. As he talks about his own struggles, he says enough to let us know he has them but not so much that the struggles are glorified. As he told me once in the early days of my blog, make sure you focus more on the victory than on the struggle. I think that’s the focus we need to have when we talk about these sorts of things. I do think struggles are glorified too much, but I also think they are thought of as okay (just the way I am) too much too. There’s a balance, and that balance may look different from one person to the next. Jesus’ example is all we need, but we need to make sure we keep context in mind as we follow Him too. As you mention, lots to say on this topic. Appreciate you being willing to approach the tough stuff.
You are right kari. There is a balance needed. i also like your pastor’s advice to you about your blog. We need to take the same approach about our blogs as we say we do about worship: “it’s not about me.” Thanks for your well thought out comment.
I’ve noticed the issue of alcohol and tobacco to be taken in different ways in different parts of the country. I’ve lived in New Hampshire and now live in Tennessee.
Let me clarify this as well.
Tennessee has its fair share of “relevant” churches who are a lot more lax than the traditional 1st Baptist church down the road.
My comments are made with the more traditional churches in mind 🙂
In New England I shared a Thanksgiving meal with the Pastor and his family. They cracked out the red wine during dinner! I was very shocked. Coming from the Bible Belt, a Christian DID NOT drink!
Was the wine given to kids? No.
Was the wine abused? No.
Did they drink a lot? I don’t think so. It was cultural.
While the Bible Belt-ers didn’t drink, they had no issue with going out into the parking lot after church and lighting up a Marlboro or sticking a dip in. There are men who walk into church with their Skoal can in their back pocket. No biggie.
I find it interesting to see different things in different parts of the country & how social “norms” find themselves in the church.
In regards to “has the Church gone too far?”…my take on alcohol is this (for what its worth 🙂 & I will preface this by saying that my wife and I do have an occasional beer or glass of wine.
1) what is the motivation in drinking? Big question to ask. If there is a spirit of rebellion or entitlement associated with it, then one needs to stop. We can’t allow our flesh to dictate our actions.
2) can you stop or do you NEED alcohol? If drinking the last beer or glass of wine causes you to panic and run to the store, there is a problem. Don’t justify or make excuses. Just evaluate.
3) We don’t drink when we have (new) folks over (especially if it is a church function). Now if we have close friends who aren’t offended by alcohol over for dinner, sure, we will have some wine. But if we are unsure of someone’s past? Then no, we will not be drinking. The last thing I want to do is crack open a beer in front of an alcoholic.
I will say this. I think the Church in general, has become a little loosey goosey with their theology and practices. Some things are meant to be held in high regard and I think the Church needs to show a little more respect to the authority and power of God.
Bill, where do I put the soap box?
First, soap box allowed. 🙂 Your comment shows you have really given some thought to this issue before you read my post. i totally concur with your 3 “disclaimers” Craig. They are important and need to be studied and answered. And as you know, I have absolutely no problem with your last paragraph.
We used your article on Sharper Iron here. Thanks
Thanks Jim. I am honored.
Craig stated way better than I could!
I grew up in the Southern Baptist way that ignored and twisted some of the scriptures regarding alcohol. My wife, a full blooded Italian grew up Catholic and red wine was part of their culture.
Like all other issues of the flesh, this one is a fine line and it’s hard to sometimes when a drink goes over that line into abuse. I’ve written often about those “fine lines.” Won’t kick the dead horse here, but as always it’s a matter of the heart.
It is a fine line Floyd. One that I have sort of figured out, but for the most part find myself still struggling with. I will agree that much of it is a matter of the heart.
While I’m apparently in the minority here, I’ll add an additional view.
Scripture never says Jesus made alcohol, it says He made wine. Wine was used generically of both alcoholic and nonalcoholic wine. For example, fresh pressed, unfermented grape juice was called wine in Proverbs 3:10; Isaiah 16:10; Joel 2:24; Matthew 9:17. Isaiah 65:8 even says a cluster of grapes contain “wine.”
In addition, ancient people knew well multiple ways to preserve unfermented wine, as well as fermented, and had the nonalcoholic fruit of the vine available throughout the year.
Judge Paul Pressler said:
“The upcoming generations need to know the havoc brought on our society and upon individuals by the use of alcohol. If we use it ourselves, we recommend its use to others. A Christian should not exercise his freedom to put himself and others at such a risk.”
Beverage alcohol is dangerous and addictive. I believe the safe, wise thing is to have nothing to do with it.
David R. Brumbelow
Thanks David for your response. it is the minority as you stated and can see. While I would agree with your last statement (and one of the reasons I abstain) and no one will disagree with, I’m sure people will have an issue with the rest of your response. I would love to hear people weigh in on it.
I respect your opinion and agree that having nothing to do with it is a safe way to go. However, I also agree with those that understand how to responsibly enjoy a good Bourbon. I do have to disagree with your science however. While it is theoretically possible to preserve grape juice without fermentation and without refrigeration it is not how grapes were preserved in early cultures. The vast majority were not near smart enough to figure it out and 99.99% of the grapes were alcoholic wine 2 months after harvest. And they definitely did not have grape juice in May.
To suggest such a thing is deceptive, bad science, and renders whatever else you might suggest as suspect.
Jesus drank alcoholic beverages. Live with it. Don’t spin it. It was probably the safest thing to drink at the time.
I think there’s a lot of cultural variety across America on this subject, and that’s I think the greatest thing for pastors to be attentive to. I personally do not drink at all because I live in the South where there’s a contingent of good ol’ Southern Baptist folk (particularly the older generations it seems) who think that drinking is the evil of all evils. I also have close friends who have struggled with alcoholism before recently coming to know Christ, and a few who had DUI’s before recently coming to faith. Those are the main two reasons I choose to abstain.
However, my wife comes from the frozen north in Lutheran country. And there, not drinking would probably be seen as quite strange.
Culture does have a lot to do with the reaction Loren. Thanks.
Pastor Grandi,
I for one appreciated the tone of your article. And the wisdom expressed.
Thank you
Thanks for your kind words Jim. Also thanks again for posting it on Sharper Iron.
My pastor and I will often go out and have a beer together…and discuss the gospel.
Everything can be (and is) abused. How many Christians
overeat? A great many.
__
How many gallons of wine did Jesus make (his 1st miracle)?
The Bible tells us between 160 and 180 gallons.
I know some pastors do have a beer with their people. You would be disappointed in me. 🙂
Time for the recovering alcoholic to weigh in 🙂
I believe Craig nailed it rather nicely. I don’t drink and, until recent experience reminded me otherwise, I’m usually dead to the temptation. I cannot condemn in others what I once enjoyed myself, even while knowing the damage the disease of alcoholism has done in countless lives. The modern church’s proscription in America, for the most part, dates back to the era before Prohibition was enacted and not much before that. As Lewis put it so clearly, Islam (he called it Mohammedanism) is the teetotal religion, not Christianity.
Me? I look forward to being able to have a glass of holy wine at the banquet table. Until then? Water and lemonade do me just fine, thanks 🙂
Glad to have you weigh in Rick. As a recovering alcoholic I was interested in hearing your thoughts. Thanks for sharing them. And I will join you at that feast for then I will feel it is right for me. 😛
I was looking for Rick’s comment, just certain it would make me smile with his wit and wisdom
Jeff,
Rather than deceptive and bad science – that the ancients knew how to preserve nonalcoholic wine is a provable fact. It can be, and is, done today. It is also seen in ancient writings.
Actually, unfermented wine was easier for ancients to produce and preserve than alcoholic wine. Methods included
boiling down fresh wine to a thick consistency that would not spoil or ferment. When ready to drink, they simply added water. This thick, strong wine (grape molasses, pekmez, vincotto) was also used for cooking.
The grape harvest lasted six months,
and certain type grapes would keep fresh for months. These grapes could be pressed into wine at any time of the year (Genesis 40:11).
Dried grapes or raisins were re-hydrated and pressed into fresh un-intoxicating wine, a practice used by many Jews right up to modern times. Ancient warriors were issued cakes of dried grapes to make their own wine as needed.
Nonalcoholic wine was also often preserved with salt and lactic fermentation (a nonalcoholic fermentation).
I’ve studied this issue extensively and this is fact, not speculation. The ancients were much smarter than many realize. These were common practices in ancient food preservation. Grape juice (then also called wine) was a common item in May, June, and every other month.
Scripture says Jesus made wine, not alcohol. Whether you believe Jesus made alcoholic wine or nonalcoholic wine is your “interpretation,” not just “taking the Bible for what it says.” And Scripture never says Jesus drank alcohol. That again, would be an interpretation.
David R. Brumbelow
Thanks David for making some good points. I hope Jeff returns to respond. 🙂
Interestingly enough, my point was not the rightness or wrongness of alcohol and whether Jesus drank alcoholic wine or not. I am far more concerned with the attitudes expressed in the article and the almost “flaunting of my freedom and I don’t really care what you think.” I am also concerned with the drinking to relieve stress, etc that is mentioned. I think that is setting a bad precedent. Ask Rick.
It is a sticky subject. My wife and I enjoy a glass of wine, but I feel like it crosses a line if I ever felt I “needed” it. Maybe I’m overly sensitive, but I keep that in mind all the time. I’ve never been drunk and I feel like trying to use it as an escape is just as bad as any other distraction we could embrace. As for what you’re saying here, I agree. The attitude can come off in such arrogance and sometimes even vitriol. That’s not okay! We all have to examine our hearts (with the Spirit’s help) and see where we aren’t embracing the love of Christ. I appreciate your heart, Bill! Thanks for the conversation.
I have to agree with you Jason on the “if I need it” thought. The arrogance really needs a checkmate to it as well. Thanks for taking part in the conversation.
Leaders are suppose to be examples, right?:) So we can’t preach the truths found in the Bible and have a life that contradicts that (Or seems like it might be). People should have no questions that we are followers of Jesus Christ and smoking or drinking can cause a person to second guess that(This is my thoughts for a person who is a pastor or church leader) .
I do think leaders will be held to higher standards.
Me too.
My thoughts…
Regarding it being unfermented- If it was unfermented then why did the ‘master of the banquet’ say that people usually save the poor wine for later after the guests have had too much to drink? Obviously, the people are getting tipsy on fermented wine and Jesus made more wine…sounds a little harsh, but is it not the case?
I tend to think that instead of Jesus sitting in the corner acting all pious, that he was the life of the party. I’m not saying he was getting drunk, but I’m saying he was engaged with the people and their celebration. Instead of being glad they ran out of wine, he shared the concern of his mother and made more. Wow!
Jesus gives us freedom. He didn’t save us from the law of sin and death so we can be slave to another law. He often railed on the Pharisees who loved to make rules so that they looked righteous when inside they were dead.
Like many things, alcohol is something we have to be careful with. It’s sort of like a sharp saw. Yes, it could hurt you if you use it incorrectly, but that doesn’t mean we outlaw saws or say it’s a sin to use a saw…
Sorry for being long winded, but I actually tried to narrow down my thoughts on the matter.. 🙂
No problem with you being long-winded. I’m used to that. 😀 J/k. You raise some good points Peter. I suspect i will revisit this issue at a later date.
I never drink when i’m around others. Not because i am a closet drinker or a phony — i am just cognizant of the impression it makes on others. I dont flaunt my liberty, as Paul warns. I’ll throw a little meat sacrificed to idols on the barbie, but would never share with friends
This is my point David. Not flaunting our liberty.
Christ came for me as a drunk – not someone who drank unfermented grape juice, but as one who sampled some of the best (and the worst) of the vintner’s arts. With respect to those who believe otherwise, Noah did not get drunk on unfermented grape wine, but on the real deal. Jesus, when He said to pour new wine into new wine skins, knew that the new wine, still fermenting, would expand in volume, and a new wineskin wouldn’t burst under the increase in pressure. The wedding at Cana? Real alcoholic wine – grape juice doesn’t vary that much from batch to batch to make a difference to the taste buds for someone to note that the best was saved for last, especially with palates already deadened by consumption of inferior grades. Someone who has never drank wine with alcohol might not be aware of that aspect of physiology, but trust those who know the difference in the taste of both.
The point I’m after is this – beverage alcohol has been around as long as man has figured out how to make the stuff. Used responsibly, it *can* gladden the hearts of men and women. There were alcoholics in the time before Christ, and since – folks who, like me, do not have an adequate defense system once we start to drink. God brought me to my senses to see that through the 12 Step rooms. We need to pay attention to God – all of us – in our behavior. If you drink in front of me, you aren’t threatening my sobriety – but I will be watching to see how you handle your freedom and if I’ll need to call a cab for you. That doesn’t reflect (in my mind) on how good a Christian you might be, but how closely you pay attention to your own health issues. If you’re looking for judgement from this recovering drunk? Sorry – too busy cleaning up after the other saints who can’t hold theirs either.
Old joke I recently heard – wanna know how to keep your baptist buddy from drinking all your beer while you’re fishing? Invite another baptist along. 🙂
David B. states: “And Scripture never says Jesus drank alcohol. That again, would be an interpretation.” Well, this is but one example:
Luke 7:34 (NIV): “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’”
We don’t use the word drunkard to apply to people who drink only non-alcoholic beverages. That Scripture leaves little room for interpretation.
Rick Dawson,
I stand by my statement, “And Scripture never says Jesus drank alcohol. That again, would be an interpretation.”
Luke 7:34 says Jesus came eating and drinking. That in no way proves your case. I’ve spent much time eating and drinking with my church members. But I’ve never drank alcohol. You are reading “alcohol” into the verse. The point is simply that John Baptist did not socialize (eating & drinking) with the people; Jesus did.
Some also point to Jesus’ enemies accusing Him of being a wine bibber, and that proving He drank alcohol. They say if Jesus did not drink alcohol at all, His enemies would never have made this accusation. Well, they also accused Him of being demon possessed. That no more proves Jesus was a “little” demon possessed than their false accusation of Him being a drunk proves He was a moderate drinker of alcohol.
You seem to hint I believe all wine in Scripture was unfermented. I don’t believe that at all. Of course they had alcoholic wine; my point is simply that they also commonly had available nonalcoholic wine. They had a choice back then, just as we do today.
As stated above, the Bible and ancient writers used “wine” to refer to both fermented and unfermented grape juice. You have to determine from the context which kind of wine. For example, Proverbs 23:29-36 leaves no doubt it is referring to alcoholic wine. And it says not to even look at that kind of wine.
David R. Brumbelow
Sadly this string of comments has gone astray. My point was not to debate the rightness or wrongness of alcohol. The point of my post was the “in your face I don’t care what you think” attitude I felt I picked up and am picking up among so many today. Bragging about drinking or smoking or whatever is tasteless and not at all Christ-like. It does not take into account how others might perceive our freedom to imbibe. The discussion of whether Jesus drank wine or just grape juice is not the issue. Read again please the article I sighted in my post to gain insight into my thoughts and why I felt something needed said. Therefore any more discussion of Jesus and alcohol will not be approved.
David and Bill,
My apologies to you both. It *is* a touchy subject with me on multiple levels, and I have struggled with both the words I read in scripture and how insane our cultural usage is with beverage alcohol. The original intent of the thread – not abusing our freedom – was jerked far afield by my last comments.
David, your scholarship is good, but this is a matter language experts have disagreed on for quite a while as well. That notwithstanding, I was in the wrong with my comments, and for that, I apologize.
Oh man Rick I did not mean you specifically. I was talking about the whole discussion. The link I gave talked about women who were boldly drinking, even talking about the need to do so for stress relief, relaxation, etc. those were dangerous words to me because they sounded a little like “crutch music.” I also picked up (least to me) a little arrogance in the attitude. You have nothing to apologize for. As an alcoholic I deeply appreciated your take on this subject. The strain of whether Jesus did or not should have been stopped by me sooner. It is my blog & I should have controlled it. So please forgive me for letting it get out of hand & giving you the impression I was blaming you. I still feel the “I’m going to drink & brag about it is the wrong attitude for the Christ-follower to have.