I don’t normally do this but while I am in a transition time (odd time of posting yesterday’s and later today) I thought I would ask you to go here and read this post by Chuck Swindoll. I have written about this subject before but it is always good to hear more on it from someone as respected as Chuck (he and I are on a first-name basis. 🙂 ) I realize it will not be everyone’s cup of tea but he speaks to what I believe is a growing and serious problem in the church today. If you happen to be a pastor or someone with access to a pastor in some way, I encourage you to read it or pass it on. Again, go here to read his post.
When you are done please feel free to comment on his blog. If you have the time I would also like to know what you think. Do you agree or disagree? Does anyone else have a concern about this?
bill, i agree with most everything mr. swindoll said. but there’s one bit that i have problems with. i’m actually just going to post on your blog what i put on his. sorry for the length:
“Do we have to adopt postmodern thinking to minister to the postmodern mind?”
i, too, feel we should be careful not to compromise biblical truth in an attempt to reach the world around us. at the same time, though, if i understand the shift that is currently taking place, postmodernism is not something a society chooses to “adopt.” rather it acts behind the scenes, shaping the way we actually view the world around us. and the shift will occur (to some extent) in western society as a whole, not only to a few who want to buy in — while others simply avoid this tint to their thinking.
no, postmodernism won’t be avoided any more than was modernism. americans haven’t been actively deciding to glorify the individual, value science and reason above spirituality, and bow down to technology. there is not required a commitment or decision in order for this to be the case. modernity has simply been the default in our world. and that default is now changing.
i’m not arguing we should just give in to the newest bully worldview on the block. rather i’m suggesting that postmodernism is going to shape (to a large extent) the minds in our culture. i believe completely there exists a kingdom worldview that sits outside of both modernism and postmodernism. and i pray that the Spirit can help it to infiltrate our minds.
i personally don’t like apologetics. i don’t like the fact that we believe we can prove with logic the existence of a God who exists above and outside that very logic. but that is what modernity has done in Christianity. however, as much as i personally dislike apologetics, i can’t claim it’s not a valid way for some to come to know Christ. and i can’t claim that modernity hasn’t tinted my view of the world at least a little.
i assume anyone drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit is coming from within their own worldview and capacity for thought. so the church has to find a way (without compromising truth) to appeal to a postmodern world. but we mustn’t confuse truth with modernity’s claims on it.
Very well stated james. I would love to hear Chuck’s response to your thoughts but I have yet to see his own response to any of the comments. Thanks for posting your thoughts here also.
thanks for sharing the link.
heh… for the past month, i feel like God has been telling me “it’s all about the balance”… not audibly, but just the thoughts that came to my mind – i am always tempted to see both sides of the argument and… balance them.
same here… on one hand, i am not comfortable with the emergent teachings because they are… i don’t know… too relaxed? my Bible teacher would laugh at me probably, calling me “too strict” (he was a quite liberal guy… well, still is…)… but it just… does not sit well with me. it’s like making Christianity “pink and fluffy” so to speak – everything is there for you, just enjoy the ride, blah blah blah. *shrug*
on the other hand, we (as in, not-really-emergent or not-emergent followers of Christ) can learn a lot from the emergent folk too – like i mentioned at Chuck Swindoll’s blog – reaching for the lost and going OUTSIDE of the Church building. at least that’s what my Church needs (and what I personally need) to do…
and something else… a year ago i stumbled upon a website called “Concerned Nazarenes“… being a member of a Nazarene Church and an internet geek, i went to check it out and was really upset. because they basically decided to tear down everything about the emergent guys. reminded me of the time when Jesus’ disciples prohibited a guy to heal others in the name of Jesus just ‘cuz he wasn’t in their “little team”…
sorry for rambling, this is just one of the topics that i have thought long and hard about…
I loved your response Bill….
RIGHT ON!
thanks for sharing. 🙂
From a layman’s perspective. I think the postmodern world still recognizes if it is being “sold” on something. Most don’t want to be manipulated and most are not exploring the “church” option in hopes of finding what they already have at home(or in their culture). We must stand on the Gospel of Jesus as our guide but reflect His love more than beating people up with our view on scripture. Reflect a humbleness and empathy that can only tell what we have seen and heard and how His word changed our lives. What I have seen and heard is the love of a Father who welcomed me back and gave me instruction on how to be His child and how to love and live to stay away from what I left at home. I don’t need apologetics to tell my story, it’s just my testimony. Our pews/chairs are full of testimonies. That we can stand on and relate to the postmodern world.
Zee: thanks for your contribution and the link. I did some research on it and went to some others they linked to. I have a Naz pastor I am friends with here in town but find myself deficient in Naz theology in some areas. i will do some more research on your link. I too think of the pink and fuzzy picture.
Thank you Michelle. I had to go back and read my response since I did it yesterday. 🙂 You know that thing about old minds and all. Appreciate you coming by.
Tom: Glad you speak from a layman’s point of view. I am glad you addressed the issue of being sold a bill of goods. I sometimes have wondered if perhaps in our attempt to be “relevant” if we haven’t become fakes. People will see right through us. Our life is testimony that carries incontrovertible evidence of God’s work in our life. Thanks for coming by.
Bill: if you’re looking for normal Naz theology, here is the official statement.
as to the link mentioned above – if that would be what the majority of Nazarenes believe, i would not be a Nazarene… *shrug*
Thanks Zee. Will take some time to check it out. Am sort of confused. The link listed here is the official statement. So would you not be one if the official statement was where the majority were or the Concerned Nazarene one?
Bill: sorry for confusion. I am all hands for the official Nazarene statement. i am not agreeing with the “Concerned Nazarenes.” sorry…
Zee: gotcha Hope you get to feeling better. 🙂
I have had some bad experiences in “seeker churches” so I am a little jaded. Scripture in no way advocates pursuing converts without discipleship.
As I read the post, one thought resounded louder than all others: When we alter the Gospel to attract the masses, we have failed the task set before us by God. We can and must alter our means of sharing the Love of Jesus, but we should never dilute the message being conveyed. It is not up to us to convert a sinner, that is God’s work. It is our lot to share the Gospel.
Dusty: Great thought and I couldn’t agree with you more. As i see it that seems to be one of the major issues in this whole discussion. As it has been said, “Methods may change but the Message never does.”
Hey,
good discussion on the topic of postmodernism. If I knew what that was I would be more able to put in my 2 cents worth.
It is an interesting point of Janes Brett’s, if I’m getting it right, on whether we really have the power to avoid postmodernism thinking that is currently driving our culture.
and if we somehow escape postmodernism thinking, do we become almost irrelevant to the unsaved around us. where they cannot possibly relate or understand us?
My thinking is that at some point we are going to hit the wall with any culture that we live in. To date in Canada and the US we have lived in a culture that has been mostly Christian. The christian culture situation is almost gone now in our countries.
The early christians did not blend in with their culture and they faced much persecution for it. If the early church is our example then we know what we should do in this postmodern world.
hi Linda: thanks for “chiming” in with your comment. I have taught that PM is that where Modernism was largely based on science, PM rejects that because basically PM teaches there are no absolutes. No definitive right and wrong. People can do whatever is right in their eyes. Others may think differently but that is my thinking. Escape it in our world? I seriously doubt it. It is so ingrained that unless there is a special move of God, it is here to stay. And you can see how that affects everything. If we haven’t hit the wall we soon will.
linda, for the record, i do believe that you and i can avoid postmodernism. during the shift (now), there will be a lot of take some and leave some. but eventually postmodernity will be the lens through which western society sees the world.
for instance, i mentioned yesterday on my blog about how our current worldview is so entrenched in individualism that we ignore much of the NT in order to make faith and salvation a personal issue, a personal decision. Jesus becomes a personal savior. when we make any decision, we don’t have any choice but to think through it as an individual first. that is our default. and that is part of modernity.
now it is possible to disrupt that process a bit. the easiest way is to move to a non-western country. it only takes a couple of years for the worldview which holds up both our values and our behaviors to start to break up a bit.
the better way, however, is to allow the HS to transorm our very beings.
It is no more “easier” to make a dead man take one step than it is to get him to walk a mile. If he is dead….he is dead.
It takes more power of God to raise one dead sinner to life than all the power in creation. We need to believe this….than “we” won’t depend on trichery or device.
Ike: spot on.