Several incidents just this past week have inspired this post and NO it is not the fiasco in the Gulf! (That is a story all its own). I am going to write this and use either no names or fictitious ones.
Incident #1: Yesterday afternoon (Tuesday) I received a call from a young lady concerning the Angel Food Ministry that our church participates in. She asked a curious question: how much do you benefit from AF? I told her, “Actually, none. Diana, the church secretary and the one who runs AF, takes any money she receives and puts it right back into the ministry to buy boxes for people who need them.” The lady was surprised but pleased that Diana did that. She gave me a few details about their current situation (she has Gran Mal Seizures and as a result of the medication the baby was born with a clef palate problem, among others). She told me a little more and then I asked her if they could use some help and that we would make sure she received a box of food. That led to a discussion about the church. She then told me about how her in-laws have refused to even talk to them because they had a child out-of-wedlock and that her deformities were God’s judgment on them. Say what?????? I reinforced to her how we will not condemn but offer a haven for her family and told her about several of our own church children who have handicaps (clef palate, Downs, deaf).
Incident #2: Last week I was asked to be involved in a meeting where the grandparents were trying to see their grandchildren. Because they left a certain “church” group, they have been forbidden to see them. Because of the sensitivity of the subject I cannot go into any more detail except to say that I have become convinced that a cult is more than just an aberrant view of Jesus. I have become convinced that a cult is also when someone is afraid to/cannot/ forbidden to leave that group.
The point of this post is the toxic waste of both lines of thinking. I am familiar with the group involved in that first example and have first-hand knowledge of the latter. The plain and simple truth is that there are some who pass themselves off as the body of Christ but are nothing more than toxic waste dumps for their brand of legalism/heresy. The idea of a deformed child being born as a result of God’s punishment/judgment just makes my skin crawl and my stomach want to hurl. The idea of who one can and cannot associate with, ordered down by the one in charge, borders on cultic (can someone say David Koresh or Jim Jones?). It is also legalism of the highest order when anyone-church or individual-can order how one is to act, dress or believe. I believe the Bible is clear on some things but ordering someone, “You must act this way, dress this way, or believe exactly like I do” is downright wrong. Churches and individuals like that are toxic.
I am praying that in both incidents (and others like them) that God’s presence and love and grace are seen in abundant measure. I appreciate that God has given me the opportunity to take part in both and hope that I have offered some healing in them. Have you ever been involved personally or been involved vicariously (because of helping someone) in a toxic church situation? What did you do and how did you handle it? I hope you will consider sharing your story and perhaps offering some help to those who may read this.
I will definitely pray for both situations. Both of the break my heart. I have not been involved in any situation like that “yet” in the church, but I am sure that it will happen soon enough. Thank you for being willing to let others learn from you.
I recently was brought close to a somewhat similar manifestation of legalism gone awry. A childhood friend of my youngest son in May(at age 24) overdosed on heroin and died. His older brother had overdosed and died last August. Two sons two souls in less than a year. The bar had been set to heights which both found unattainable. Legalism gone amuk in the name of Jesus.
As long as men run churches there will be varying degrees of toxicity and wayward ideas to find offensive by others. As long as people are free to associate or not I guess it’s ok. Some I am sure are skirting the laws of child abuse for those not old enough to decide.
There are a lot of fringe lunatic Christians that interpret things in the Bible in very bizarre ways.
They are sincere and believe they are just as right as you and me. We just choose to disagree.
One cult that I was fortunate to work with and live with for a few years were a community of Amish people. I found some of their rules harsh. Particularly the shunning for life any members that decided to leave the Order. I also found them some of the most humble, devout and compassionate group of Christians I have ever known.
I guess we just all have to decide for ourselves what is right and who we care to associate with and respect the rights of others to do the same.
Hi cycleguy,
Yes, I was involved in a church something like the one you are describing here except there were no overt orders or commands, they more subtly communicated.
A person’s spiritual health and position with God were determined by how obedient they were to the leadership( Pastor). Anyone who questioned the leadership was noted as questionable and suspect.
You are right, there is no real freedom to leave. Otherwise you are leaving where God has placed you and where he wants you to be. You have been planted in their church etc. My former husband and I wanted to leave, but couldn’t.
My husband was abused by the Pastor by him yanking a teaching ministry out from under him because the people were liking my husband’s style of teaching and ability to simplify. The pastoral leader has to be everything in these churches . Any perceived threat to their position as God’s leader in that church is stomped on quickly.
How we left this ‘church’
was through a sovereign deliverance by God that I received. While I was worshipping God in the worship time, I called out to God. Something ‘whooshed’ off the top of my head. My hearing was cut off. That’s what happens to me when I experience the spirit realm. I can only hear what is happening in the Spiritual place and I can’t hear what is happening in the natural realm. I can see people talking but I can’t hear what they are saying. I just heard the whooosh and felt something come of the top of my head at that time.
Over Christmas break we went on a short holiday to the next city. I read some material in a Christian bookstore while there. For some reason God took the words of that book and made them speak to me. I suddenly understood that something wasn’t right. Something was wrong with what was going on in the ‘church’. My husband seemed to agree. But he wanted to leave over a period of time when he felt that it was ‘time’. I couldn’t do that. I refused to go back to the ‘church’ except to tell people that we were leaving.
Long story short. It was not pretty. A few months after we left other people were thrown out of the church. I spent countless hours on the phone trying to convince one of these people that she was still ok with God. It was tough. I don’t know if I was able to really convince her.
Within a year or so the ‘church’ closed down. People felt that something had changed. The Pastor began canceling services, and eventually the people who were left started attending other fellowships.
That experience dramatically affected our family including our children. Today my former husband is married to a woman who practices New Age. He seems to have lost his spiritual compass with God. He had an amazing experience with God when he was saved in 1982. It was awesome. He is struggling now. My son will not attend a church. I think because he is concerned about finding himself involved with something similar to what his parents got into. That is no excuse for him though. He is making his own choices.
My daughter goes to church but there are serious concerns in their family. I think she is trying to barter with God. ‘You do this God and then I will do this’. If you don’t, then your the one making me do these ‘wrong’ things.
Bill, I am consistently amazed at how some people respond to other’s trials and adversity and feel they are in a position to speak for God. That scares me and I don’t take it lightly when I say that God ‘spoke’ to my spirit (consequently, He’s never spoken about judgment on babies or anything like that- go figure).
As for the other, sounds a little more than borderline, but I don’t want to jump to conclusions.
It’s hard to understand how we as Christians can do this to one another (and try to do it to those outside the realm of the church). It’s so sad, but thank you for standing up and standing with Jesus. I appreciate you.
Incident #1- knowing you you pointed her right to John 9 🙂 Love that passage- reminds me that EVERYTHING happens to show God’s work!
Love you, miss you, and am totally jealous that you get to see B this weekend AND for almost a whole week next month 🙁 My only consolation is that I get to go see the Braves this weekend (and spend time with friends).
Michael: thanks for the prayers. They both need it (as do I as I try to help). Pray you don’t cross these paths.
Jeff: the ugly results of legalism are seen in so many ways. This is tragic. Thanks for a great comment. always appreciate it.
Linda: WOW! You know where these folks are coming from. Praying for your husband to open his eyes and for you son and daughter to see jesus.
jason: It is amazing. I withheld some info that would no doubt be very convincing for a reason but you pegged it right about being more than borderline. Always welcome and appreciate your wisdom.
Tami…Tami…Tami: what am I going to do with you? You make a great comment. You show your love for Braden (B). But then you go ahead and ruin the whole thing with that comment about the Braves. Hope you have a good weekend visit in spite of… 😀
Bill, prayers for both of these situations.
I thought how wonderful that God is using you to bring healing, that’s a prayer I pray regularly for myself.
When you say church and toxic in the same sentence … wow, is that ever a loaded question. I’ve been in toxic “church situations” but can’t think of a time when God used me to bring healing. I’m thankful for people like you though.
I’m drowning in my DIY project…be back on a daily basis soon, just wanted to drop in and give you a hug!
Bill…are you talking smack about the Atlanta Braves…watch out now 🙂
Robin…Robin…Robin: why did you have to go and ruin a great thought with your final line? I put up with her love affair with the Braves for oh so many years (since the mid ’80s when The Smurf played for them). Maybe the Pirates will come out of their wilderness of frustration like the Bravos have and come to the winning side.
But on the more serious side: thanks for the kind words. I am praying that God will use me in both situations. We have already reached out to the lady with Angel Food. Hopefully it will bear fruit. The latter: we are praying for the breaking of strongholds.
Saw your project. very aggressive for me. 🙂 Hope it turns out well.
not personally (although… it depends on the way you look at it…), but i have seen the fruits of such an “intoxication”… my aunt had cancer and although it was tough on all of us, but toughest on my cousin (aunt’s daughter)… a gal from my Church, by some…. ahem… divine guidance, decided to tell my cousin that maybe we aren’t praying well enough…
it has happened over 9 years ago, yet the gap that comment created is still there… my mom doesn’t talk to that gal anymore, my cousin doesn’t talk to that gal as well as doesn’t trust God anymore, and… i am with that gal in the Church board, so i do have to talk to her, yet i still find myself wary of her views… that was the thing i was scared of when i was offered a position in the Church board – that i won’t be able to communicate with her. I still have problems, yet God’s working inside…
*sigh* that was a lesson learned the hard way that words we say have the ability to kill others… maybe they continue existing, but they are robbed of joy. and it sucks because to re-establish the relationships after such a breach is tough.
Zee: that is definitely one of those toxic situations I am referring to. Where does that person get “off” telling someone they aren’t praying enough or praying with enough faith? No one can know someone else’s heart. Plus I do not find that in the Scripture. Pray for healing and your dealing with her. Maybe some day she will wake up. Thanks for sharing.
Bill: i think she did wake up… but my cousin’s faith is still practically non-existent and no matter what i tell her – the hurt’s still there… :'( it was a hard blow on her…
WOW Zee that is good and bad. Good to hear she woke up but bad about your cousin’s faith. How tragic a careless word can change so much.
yeah… that’s one of the toughest relationships that i ever had – the one with that gal. on one hand, i do want to be friends and to be able to communicate normally, yet, on the other hand, i cannot get over the occasional bouts of bitterness that she’s doing great and living a happy life, and she basically ruined my cousin’s life…
Zee: I reckon I have two questons. One, does she realize what she has done/did? Two, has she ever gone to your cousin and given a sincere, heart-felt apology?
one: to be honest, i never raised that question with her…
two: when my cousin was over in Kyiv (she lives in Germany now since she married a German guy), the gal did come and ask forgiveness. no idea how sincere it was (i wasn’t there), yet i know that my cousin only retreated even deeper into her shell…
it was sadly ironic that the gal’s own mother passed away because of cancer as well, just about a year apart after my aunt or sometime close, i think…
Gotta wonder if that is what woke her up.
It is sad that man can be so quick to “know” things. Humbleness in confessing how little we know seems to rely on God more. There is a switch somewhere that flips to the law from the Spirit and it must be called the toxic switch. When people do not have the love,mercy and peace of Jesus in their hearts it is toxic. Thanks for sharing…go braves.
Hi cycleguy,
it is very tough when comments like ‘not having enough faith’, not ‘praying hard enough’ are said. I get that. What a friend said to me one time is that those don’t excuse us with God. We make our own decisions no matter what our circumstances and past were like. No matter who hurts us. A tendency of human nature is to blame somebody else.
What I seem to be hearing lately is that faith is from God. We don’t work it up. What we do to increase our faith is to be obedient to God’s word. Faith takes care of itself in that context.
Jesus Christ is the Ten Commandments. Not the letter of the law anymore but the Living Word of God.
What I’m relearning right now is that everything we have and every benefit we have comes through Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is how we receive what we need.
Jesus Christ needs to be central… I think we have kind of lost that position of Jesus in our culture and teaching of today.
Sorry to get off here a bit. We can’t give ourselves reasons and excuses. We have to press on Exalting and Worshipping Jesus. Without him in his rightful place in our lives we have nothing and we will recieve nothing from God.
Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life.
Error and bad teaching is what has caused this hurt to Zee’s cousin.
So often we use the Scriptures as weapons against each other instead of the enemy…that is indeed toxic waste.
Good thoughts bro’
I remember when I was about 23 years old standing on a dock beside a river while a man of about 70 years of age looked at my 1 year old daughter and told me that her handicaps were my fault for not eating organic foods.
While he did not lay the fault on sin, he still put the fault on my wife and I. Whether our diet had any impact on her body or not is beyond the point. (We do know that a lack of folic acid in diet contributes to our daughter’s particular handicap. We also realize that for other children, that their mother’s decisions to use alcohol or other drugs were contributing factors for other birth defects.)
The issue of cause-and-affect is quite different than speaking for God’s intent when considering that God had full capability to protect the child within the womb from those defects. Who are we to speak for why God acted in an individual life’s physical composition? I think that was the same question that He directed toward Moses when Moses began grumbling about his speech impediment.
Psalm 139 has been a blessed school master when it comes to babies born healthy or handicapped. In every case, God’s fingerprints are all over them. He holds them in His hands and ordains their lives.
It is only man that dares to stand back and judge God’s handiwork as less than what it is. And then, on top of that, it is man that wants to speak for why God would create this ‘thing’ that is less than desirable.
Not only is our vision skewed but so is our judgment when it comes to speaking for God.
I don’t know why God chose to form my daughter the way He did. But, ultimately, she is His handiwork and it is my responsibility to recognize and cherish that.
Tom: have to agree with you about some type of switch. Maybe it is a “I am better than you switch” or “If you want to be like me” switch.
You were doing fine until the last comment. I believe I am being ganged up on. Please don’t encourage Tami. 🙂
Not sure what you mean by Jesus is the 10 Commandments but will certainly agree that we need to exalt jesus more and bad teaching is what caused the hurt.
jay: Yep. we set up ourselves up as the bible police. Thanks for coming by.
Tony: what a goof! Same song different verse only this one is not “spiritual.” I simply cannot imagine the hurt it caused you all. You have done a terrific job showing and telling her she is beautiful and Psalm 139 sure backs up your efforts.
Hi Cycleguy,
I am meaning that God gave Moses the 10 Commandments written on stone. Jesus completely fulfilled the requirement of the righteous Law. He embodies the Law in his body when he died righteously and rose again.
God fulfilled the Old Covenant in Jesus and made a New Covenant with the blood of his Son. The Law is now the living breathing Word of God. Jesus Christ himself. When we follow Jesus we are keeping the 10 Commandments as well.