Others

Written by cycleguy on January 16th, 2012

I WILL TELL YOU RIGHT UP FRONT…

THIS.  WILL.  BE.  A.  HARD.  POST.  TO.  WRITE.

I can honestly say that I did not capitalize those letters and “period” them so that it drew you in like a fish on a hook.  In all seriousness, this will be a hard post to write.  All because I read something the other day that got me thinking.  I even wrote it in my Moleskine journal.  But, first some background.

I have, in the past, told you about my legalistic bent.  I was doctrinally legalistic.  But I was also culturally legalistic.  Not in the way of dress…not me!  But my biggest problem (and remember the era I come from…the Dark Ages  🙂 ), is one that is rearing its head today in a big way.   I come from an age where pastors’ conduct was to be exemplary.  Trust me, mine always wasn’t.  But in my most legalistic days, I was very outspoken about several things:  social drinking being one.  I ranted and raved about it.  So much so, that one time a man was heard to threaten me by those who sat around him.  🙁

Now, in fairness to me, I have slacked up on the judgmental attitude that precluded those rants. I could rant about something I was not guilty of, but to rant about something I struggled with, well…that was another story.  That being said: I am a tee-totaler.  Always have been.  Lord willing, always will be.  My main concern then was far more judgmental. My main concern now is something else…

AM I BEING OTHER-ORIENTED? 

Here is what has me all out of whack.  Read the Scripture in I Cor.10:23-27.   There are three questions to ask:

1.  Is it helpful?  (v.23a)

2.  Is it constructive? (v.23b)

3.  Is it other-oriented? (v.24)

It is that last question that has me stumped right now.  Here is what I am asking: does my course of action or inaction, seek the good, the betterment, the blessing of my neighbor?  Is what I am doing, or propose to do, going to further the Kingdom and benefit those I have come to be a witness to, or will it be a detriment?  When people have left me to go do other things, will their time with me have been a good thing for the Kingdom, or a bad thing? 

I realize our culture is different today.  What was wrong then is not seen as wrong now.  The Scripture hasn’t changed; our views have.  And I am not saying social drinking is wrong (it is just an example).  But whether we are talking about social drinking, or whatever is questionable (gray), we still must ask the “other-oriented” question.

I’m going to stop there.  I would like to hear your thoughts on this.  Am I all wet?  Am I barking up the wrong tree?  Am I making  a big to-do about nothing?  Feel free to chime in.  I would love to hear what you think.

 

58 Comments so far ↓

  1. Dan Black says:

    Being others focused is so important. An aspect of this is knowing that one persons convictions are different than another.Then living your life in a way so you won’t cause others to sin because of your actions(Even if it’s a personal conviction, like drinking) Good thoughts.

  2. Moe says:

    That’s one of the things that I struggle with. I love the freedom that God provides through christ, and the fact that the gospel is not meat nor drink, but joy in the Holy Ghost. With that said, the Bible does caution us to be diligent and careful for the “weaker” brothers. Those who will find our actions (though not sinful) to cause them to stumble.

    I always say that the person that disregards this advice is not only foolish, but immature. I don’t like it, but I’m called to be diligent about it.

    • cycleguy says:

      One thing I didn’t mention Moe was what you have: freedom. Freedom in Christ. I like your last paragraph. Maturity dictates a different look at things. Thanks for a good comment.

    • Jim F says:

      I would have to agree with Moe and this today.

      I think Bill that Moe could be another long lost brother 🙂

      Good thoughts Bill in an area that is touchy with some.

      • cycleguy says:

        Do you really think someone from Manhattan can be a long lost brother to us? Yikes! I reckon he could teach us country guys some things. 🙂 Moe speaks with wisdom. Thanks Jim. Hope your conference went well.

  3. I think you are dead on. The Word hasn’t changed, our views have.

    As I read through the comments I think moe’s last statement was very important.

  4. Craig says:

    The gray area of scripture will always cause problems…when we filter the gray issues through our flesh and not through the Spirit.

    You see legalism all over. hair cuts. dress style. tattoos. drinking. music/worship style. Paul reminds us that we have freedom but we should only use the freedom if our brother is lifted up.

    great thoughts Bill!

  5. I agree with Michael, it is our morals that have changed over the years, not His. And Moe is right on too. And I’m old school too, I think that someone who is serving the Lord should be held to a higher standard, even if they are not employed in this capacity. I don’t think there is any wrong with social drinking, but I do believe that it can be used by those that want to oppose God to help keep others away from Him.

    Of course the flip side of the coin is when we carry it too far and put our ministers on pedestals and don’t expect them to make mistakes. About 10-15 years ago, I remember some of the people in my church getting upset because the minister made a comment about a movie that he and his wife had gone to see. Very famous movie, just happened to be R-rated and was know for it’s nudity and sexual overtones. People just couldn’t believe that their pastor had gone to see this.

    Of course, this is all easy for me to say, because I’ll turn the computer off in a bit and return to my job in the secular world. So I’m just looking in from the outside.

    • cycleguy says:

      you raise a good point Sele. There are two sides to the coin. We can live in freedom but we can also take it too far. I often wonder, since I am a pastor, why “what’s good for the goose isn’t good for the gander.” Know what I mean? Why should a pastor, for example, not be free to see a movie that his people are going to see? Thanks for the comment.

      • I agree with you, but unfortunately there are a lot of people that see that pastor as being holier than they are and they expect him/her to not be the same as they are. This isn’t right, but unfortunately it is the way that it is with some.

        • cycleguy says:

          I know the dichotomy exists. I also know I live in a glass house. 😉

          • Susan says:

            As a preacher’s kid, I am well aware that the pastor and the pastor’s family is held to a higher standard. And, I agree, it isn’t right. In fact, it has the capacity to be harmful, to be a stone of stumbling.

  6. John G. says:

    Bill, you remind me of Bernard S.. Always coming up with profound issues. One of the major things with me is the idea that we must not offend. Jesus simply stated the Truth and moved on. Many were offended. It is important we work to see that we do not cause someone to stumble, but we must also tell the truth hoping to stop his stumbling. Intent is everything. I have posted before, I/we do not change someone’s mind. Only God changes minds. It is important that we realize we have freedom, but with freedom comes responsibility. Once you declare you are a Christian you are carefully watched and will have a profound effect by your actions/inactions. This effect can last through generations and we will be held accountable.

    • cycleguy says:

      Hey John. If we are talking about the same Bernard S. then I consider that a high compliment. I really miss his posts and comments. You are right that with freedom comes responsibility. Unfortunately, many today see freedom as a case for doing anything they want and who cares about anyone else. Thanks for coming by and commenting.

  7. lindaM says:

    Hi Bill,
    Deuteronomy 10:12,13 ‘what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the LORD’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

    I don’t think that I am understanding what you are saying/asking in your post today. That our priority as Christians is to always be ‘others oriented?’

    Mark 12:33 the scripture says this ‘To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.’

    In my mind this is not bending over backwards to accommodate your neighbor as our first priority as Christians. We are not to work evil toward or to defraud our neighbor. We are to reach out a helping hand to our neighbor if we have the ability and maturity as Christians.

    The situation of our brothers and sisters in Christ is our priority before reaching out to the masses. We need to help one another as Christians in the church. The early church did this. They sold things that they had in order to pool it together to meet the needs of Christians who were experiencing persecution because of their faith in Jesus Christ. Lost jobs etc. I suppose.

    In my mind anyone who takes on the job of leader is at a higher standard. They are leading the way. They cannot indulge in the affairs of the world. Does this mean that leaders cannot have a few sips of wine now and then? No.
    Without a good moral standard from their leaders believers are likely to say, my pastor does it, so it’s ok. As Christians we have freedom, but if we do daring things consistently, such as watching nudity in X rated movies, then I think we’ve crossed the line for the requirement of a leader. How can a leader lead if they are falling into the ditch themselves?

    just my thoughts.

    • cycleguy says:

      I appreciate your question and concern Linda. I will try to answer it with as little an answer as possible. As a Christ-follower, my/your first priority is to love God. That is clear. But even as I do that, I don’t live in a vacuum. I come in constant contact with people on a daily basis (but not as much as some do) who are affected by the life I choose to live/not live. In all decisions I make, I have to ask how this will affect others. If my heart is right with God, and I am trying to please Him, then my guide will be the Bible. But even then, some areas are gray (social drinking, dancing, etc). So then I have to ask, “How will this affect others if I use my freedom to indulge?” In that case I am being other-oriented. The Scripture in 2 Cor. I referenced, and the one in I Cor.8 about meat offered to idols, also lays the groundwork for that type of thinking. That is what I meant by other-oriented. How will my freedom in Christ affect others? Does that help? 🙂

      • lindaM says:

        I’m thinking about decisions that I might have to make Bill, as a Christian. My first thought is for myself and for God. Am I protecting my walk with God if I indulge in this (such as drinking and dancing). How do I really feel about having social drinks. For myself (LindaM), I would avoid the bars and lounges. I wouldn’t even go in there. Why take fire into my bosom, so to speak, and possibly risk my walk with God and my life at the end? (drinking, dancing and fooling around with unsaved men is not in my best interests)

        My other thoughts would go to the Bible and the knowledge and wisdom that God has given me. Is going into a bar and having social drinks worth it? No. It’s definitely not worth it to me.
        Also, like you say, what if someone I know is in the bar and sees me in there. It will be difficult for me to exhort and encourage them to righteousness. Their first defense is to counter attack me with ‘you do the same things’ You’re a hipocrite!

        Our thoughts must go also to other believers. This is what I believe you are saying Bill. That we are not living the Christian faith alone. We have to watch out and protect the faith of others as well.

        • lindaM says:

          I’m going to say avoid emphasizing the ‘others’ in teaching and preaching. It is a part of our walk but not the main part. ‘Others orientated’ will not get ourselves on the right track with God. Our motivation has to be more than what is best for others. It comes down to saving our own life, preserving what we have in God, and moving forward to gain even more in God. This teaching will have the fallout of benefiting others as God’s love increases more and more in us.
          My thought is that you would be heading into the direction of legalism if people have to consider everyone around them before they can make a decision. This could be a lot of people to think about, and in my mind is not needed if other more important questions are being asked by the believer.

          • cycleguy says:

            Point well-taken Linda but at the same time, we do have an “obligation” to check how our behavior is affecting others. You have stated that you believe the Sunday worship is for Christ-followers (or have I misunderstood?). If that is the case, then as a pastor am I not to exhort the flock to holy living? Should we not be asking ourselves how our behavior is affecting those around us?

        • cycleguy says:

          I agree with all you are saying Linda and you are right with your last paragraph that I am referring especially to other believers. At the same time, as you have pointed out, I must also be aware of how unsaved people will perceive my walk with Christ. This is in answer to the first comment that begins “I’m thinking about decisions.” have no clue why the replies I make are out of order.

          • lindaM says:

            Your’re making me think today 🙂 I’ll try and give you what I’m thinking.
            Our motivation for holy living and our measuring stick is not ‘how our behavior is affecting others’. It’s more about ‘how our behavior is affecting God and the Holy Spirit’. ‘How is my behavior increasing my faith, or decreasing my faith’.
            One of the main results of holy living is the rejection of evil. We start to behave like our Father. We love God and righteousness. For the wicked person this is reversed by their rejection and rebellion against God. They hate God.

            We are told in scripture to obey the Word of God. To obey the Spirit of God, to walk in the paths of righteousness and the ways of God. Our God is holy, and so we are to love God and to be holy. God will help us, he says, if we are tempted with sin….

            We seek after the love of God not to pour it out on others(per se), but to have it in ourselves, in our hearts. The more of God’s love in our hearts the better.

            When we do things that grieve the Holy Spirit, he hides himself, we have less of God, so to speak in our lives. If we continue in sin and rebellion God will leave us entirely. We’ll be on our own. Fending for ourselves in the wickedness of the world. We will be destroyed becayse we can’t save ourselves, we can’t live holy lives by ourselves, etc.
            We must repent and abhor our wickedness, again. How many times can we do this and receive God’s forgiveness as a Christian? I don’t know. That’s something to consider and fear.

            Our choices are made to obey God. To please God, to obtain more of God. To be more effective for God, to wittness with integrity for God, to show forth the glory of God. A living sacrifice.

            For example, my husband was totally delivered from alcoholism the day after being saved. He did not drink any alcohol again for about 15 years. Then he took a trip to Germany and ended up drinking a beer. If my husband had made a decision a few months after being saved, to go ahead and continue on with his making beer, drinking hard liquor, etc. he would grieve God and and Holy Spirit. They had just miraculously delivered him.

            He would be throwing this deliverance back into their faces. My husband could expect that alcoholism would get ahold of him again if he did not protect and covet his sobriety.

            • cycleguy says:

              I totally agree with you Linda. We may actually be talking about the same thing, only coming at it from different angles. I want to live a holy life. I want to please the Father. My struggle comes in the gray areas where the Bible doesn’t specifically yeah or nay. P.S. Nothing wrong with thinking. 😛

  8. Jeff says:

    I agree with those that say our views/morals have changed. While Jesus and Paul seemed to accept slavery as OK I think our progress as a species has reached a higher moral ground.
    I think we all much prefer living in a country which is run by the rule of law. It will, however, always be a work in progress.
    When laws are made by men that think they know how God thinks and what God would do is when the real sparks begin to fly.
    I think we are all born with an inate goodness and understanding that we should treat others the way we would want to be treated.
    And we should judge others the way and on the same basis as we would want to be judged.
    Whether the Dogma is Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Jewish, Morman or whatever it needs to be domesticated, kept private and not allowed to interfere with our inborn ability to know right from wrong.

    • cycleguy says:

      i appreciate your thoughts Jeff. I see a little problem with “higher moral ground.” There is no one who can take a higher moral ground than the Perfect One (Jesus). I also believe we are not born with an innate goodness since we are born with a sinful nature (I don’t believe in original sin though). our basic bent is selfishness and left to ourselves we will choose that selfish route. Thanks for the thought-provoking comment.

      • John G. says:

        Would you mind explaining your comment “I don’t believe in original sin though”. You may email me if you prefer.

        • cycleguy says:

          i don’t mind explaining it here John. First, I am not a Calvinist, so that ought to clue you in. 🙂 I do not believe a person is born in sin, but I do believe that we are born with a sin nature that almost immediately manifests itself in “i want fed. I want coddled. i want, i want, i want.” Jeff was saying we are born with an innate goodness. I also don’t believe that, hence my comment. I realize many of my readers are Calvinist; some Arminian; some don’t really give a rip. In all truth, I fall into that last category. Not to make light of some doctrinal belief, but I just believe there are more important things to be concerned about (and I am not necessarily talking about social things). People need Jesus and when I talk to them I will share Jesus, not some doctrine I believe/don’t believe about original sin. There are a whole lot smarter and more well-“bred” biblical people than me who can argue their pro/con original sin stand. I am not making light of anyone’s stand pro or con. Please understand that. Just being honest. Thanks for asking the question.

      • Jeff says:

        So you think I am selfish?

        • cycleguy says:

          Better question: do I think we are all selfish? That is the “bent” yes. I know I am. But Jesus also helps me to begin looking less at myself and more at others.

          • Jeff says:

            Fair enough. I just disagree. My mother wasn’t selfish. Was yours? I am not selfish. I don’t need Jesus to convince me that selfish is not cool. I am just not bent that way.

  9. Bill, there are some gray area things that I think I have liberty to do, but honestly don’t want to do. If we are thinking about others and putting their needs first, won!’t we self-limit ourselves? That’s what we do as parents. Why not others?

    • cycleguy says:

      your comment is exactly the point I am trying to get to Larry. I have the freedom to do certain things, but I need to consider others in the equation. In that case, I need to self-limit. Thanks for adding to the discussion.

  10. floyd says:

    I think everyone struggles with something, it just so happens yours might be legalism, which means you have more self control than the majority of people, but in the end we all have a weakness, a place where our spiritual nail tends to bend.

    While I don’t have a great answer for what probably no one on this post would agree are rights and wrongs, the words of Christ come to mind regarding us, “The world will know you (Christians) by the love you have for one another.” (paraphrase)

    That one could be harder for me than following the rules…

    • cycleguy says:

      I used that as an example of years ago. I definitely have my struggles! 🙂 Love is definitely to be our guiding force in what we do/don’t do. Thanks Floyd.

  11. Rob Shepherd says:

    You nailed it. 1 Corinthians 8:9-12. Verse 12 says “When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.

  12. Ed says:

    So many things comes to mind. First of all, we are to be a perfect example of Christ to the world. So many times, we are all may they see of Him. And yet, many have misunderstandings about both Him, and us. If we are seen walking into lounge many will be led to think we are there to get drunk, when in fact we are there to have a nice dinner. We may even be seen walking into a bar to help talk some good old fashion sense into a soul who has lost their way because his/her spouse has called us for help. Yet many will get the wrong idea.

    I think that as far as being “other-orientated” there is such a thing as being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you are weak in a particular area, you shouldn’t be there in the first place. But then again, perhaps the Lord is sending you into the area to strengthen you. I don’t like to deal with drunks or drug addicts (pot-smokers) personally. But if the Lord leads me to minister the Word of God to them, then I have no choice. Of course, having a clear conscious and boldness just before walking into the lion’s den is always a must.

    • cycleguy says:

      The whole idea of perception is a real struggle I think Ed. While my freedom may allow me to do or go certain thing or places, my consciousness of others’ perception may put a check in my spirit. I do like your thoughts on being in the wrong place at the wrong time. We do need to avoid the appearance of evil, especially if we are fighting that demon ourselves. But like you said (and this is important) “if the Lord leads me to minister…I have no choice.” Even in that we must allow God to take care of the perception of people. HE KNOWS! Good thought. Thanks.

  13. Jason says:

    You are dead on.

    Focus on others is one of the biggest things that Jesus called us to do in our lives. There’s no way that focusing on others and how what we do impacts their walk with Christ can be a bad thing.

  14. I don’t know – this is kinda something I’m constantly wondering about myself. Because it all comes down to what is truly better for the other person. On the one hand, we don’t want to offend them or lead them into temptation. But on the other hand, tiptoeing around their incorrect perceptions might actually be an unloving thing to do. At some point, we should try humbly to bring them to the light. I guess it’s all about choosing your battles wisely for the benefit of others.

    • cycleguy says:

      Great point: choose battles wisely. From my standpoint: is it worth judging and criticizing and injuring a fellow believer who has the freedom to minister? Then again, what if it is not to minister but to participate? What a conundrum! You are right to wonder…and if you get it figured out please let me know. 🙂 Thanks Loren for a challenging comment.

  15. Allen says:

    Wow,
    You have kicked the top of the proverbial anthill again 🙂 I agree that the Word has not changed just as God has not changed as He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. What has changed is the morality of the world around us. We have to be careful not to let the world’s morality set the tone for our lives but to go back to what the Word says.

    As we are called to be disciples, I believe we have to concern ourselves on the example we are setting and how our lives are being read by others. That’s the difficult part, because we all want to do the Clint Eastwood thing – live like we want to and tell everyone to bug off. But that is not what we are called to do. We are called to shine light in the darkness, and we can’t do that by imitating the darkness.

    Good Word, Bill. You continue to challenge me.

    -Peace

    • cycleguy says:

      Your thoughts are great Allen! I like your reference to Clint Eastwood and how we tend to want to live life our way. Not much to add to your thoughts. thanks for coming by. Hope they weren’t fire ants. 🙂

  16. Susan says:

    Bill, have you read The Misunderstood God?

  17. Larry Hughes says:

    Deep subjects here. I don’t drink but I do not mind social drinking by others. The problem here is when is it not acceptible on the amount of social drinking? I have to think when you get pie eyed drunk or close to it.

    I have to think we must set an example and witness by our actions and beliefs yet not be judgemental and offend others.

    Although the scriptures may not be up to the modern day times in some percptions by others, one must follow what is written untill God says other wise.

    Leading by example has good merrits

    • cycleguy says:

      Therein likes the problem with judging: how much is too much? What is acceptable and what is not? We always have to keep in mind the whole idea of example and witness. Thanks Larry.

  18. Adam says:

    I think you are right on bill. The word is constant and never changing. We tend to bend scripture are mark it off as outdated so we can feel better about ourselves. I personally see this happening all around me in the lives of people I know and especially in the media.

    Good stuff Bill. Good to be back writing and reading your blog and others again. Such a breath of fresh air.

    • cycleguy says:

      It is really good to hear from you again Adam. I thought you had about given up blogging. 🙂 Thanks for the kind words. i do agree with you about us bending Scripture way too much.

  19. Jon says:

    It is so important to be ‘other-oriented.’ Honestly, it’s something that I’m constantly striving to do. I think Moe was spot on–as believers, we need to have a certain level of maturity, and be aware of our actions and how they affect others.