In the light of some comments on yesterday’s post, I thought I might touch on a troublesome topic in this post. There is another reason as well. Jo and I just spent part of Monday afternoon at the theater watching Titanic in 3D. It is the first time she has ever seen it in its entirety. It was the first time I have ever seen anything in 3D. I was fascinated by the 3D effects.
BUT I CAN NEVER WATCH THAT MOVIE WITHOUT A TEAR IN MY EYE AND A REALIZATION/REMINDER OF THE TREMENDOUS LOSS OF LIFE.
This is not a post about the arrogance of man. I already touched on that here. No, it is something else that rings in my ear…the cries of desperation of people in a hopeless condition (a sinking tomb). I wonder how many of those souls who died will greet me in heaven?
But it does bring to mind God’s sovereignty. Could God not have stopped that tragedy? Answer: yes. Further answer: Yes, but He cannot violate His own character to do so. He did not cause the arrogance to go too quickly through ice infested water. The question that does come up in any discussion like this is God’s sovereignty.
I am currently reading a book called Beyond the Valley by Dave Branon. His 17 year old daughter, Melissa, was killed instantly in a car accident when a car ran a STOP sign. My college (and beyond) friend, Doug, and his wife lost their son in a car accident on Super Bowl Sunday in 2006. It is a wound that never heals. But Dave brings up several good points:
Without sovereignty, we would be left contemplating a surprised God unable to intervene in a terrible, horrible accident.
Without sovereignty, Melissa’s death would have been, to us, either the worst mistake God ever made or proof that there are some situations over which God has no control.
Everything we know about God, however, indicated that this was simply not the case. We don’t call Him the Almighty because He is incapable or limited. We don’t worship Him as “King of kings and Lord of lords” because He is subject to some other power in this universe. We don’t call Him Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, because He has somehow fallen asleep at the controls in the middle of things. No, He is the Creator, the Ruler, and the Sustainer of all that is. And if He is all those things-and we are convinced that He is-then He had to be alert and paying attention to the events of what, from this side of heaven, appeared to be an avoidable error. (Page 19)
Those are some pretty powerful words. What do you think? Do you struggle with God’s Sovereignty? How so? Do Dave’s words make sense to you and help clarify anything?
Bill I struggle with this all the dang time. I look at episodes in my life that did not go as I had wished them to. The hurt and pain that I struggle with seems so pointless and unnecessary. Why didn’t God step in and help? Of course, when other people are involved, there is the issue of free will. God could have done something, but overriding the free will of a person is not something that He does. But, that said, couldn’t He have given a nudge to others along the way to help me?
You have hit on the crux of the whole thing Daniel. Could He not have given a nudge? That seems to be one of those unanswerable questions. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Hi Bill,
I was reading Isaiah 24:19,20 ‘The earth is broken up, the earth is split asunder, the earth is thoroughly shaken…..so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion that it falls—- never to rise again’.
This is the Sovereign LORD, the Shaddai. If we didn’t have Jesus Christ standing between us and God we would already be burned up to a unrecognizable crisp. He has compassion but he loves justice more, he loves righteousness more. He protects his glory and his name.
He is going to destroy the whole earth. He loves his creation. But he will build again. A new heaven and a new earth. The curse will be over.
We wicked, wretched men/women have caused all of this destruction.
The Titanic sinking was a tragic loss of life. I heard today that 260,000 people die every day on the earth. That’s tragic. Most of these people are unsaved, and they will not be rescued by God out of hell. Death ends it.
They couldn’t see their way to repentance and new life in Jesus Christ through the cross. We have a huge treasure in our faith. We need to guard it and protect it. Our faith will benefit us for an eternity. halllelujah! praise the Lord!
In Revelation angels, elders, and other amazing beings give Glory to God when he begins to take vengeance upon the earth for all of its wickedness and its shedding of innocent blood.
We need to know how bad our sin really is.
God’s sovereignty never stops.
For me, it’s easy to accept his sovereignty when something happens to me… but when something happens to someone I care about? THAT’s when it gets tougher…
But yes, I agree – He knows more than I will ever know, so obviously there’s a plan for every little thing… even when we feel as if He stopped loving us or caring for us (which will never happen.)
It is tough when we watch someone we love go through a confusing time. And for the record: I firmly believe, along with you, that He will never stop loving us. 🙂
I think it lends itself back to Psalm 139:1-10 (which I just read this morning as the lessons we are working on in our journey group/Bible study are on God’s Sovereignty, who he is, and all of those “omni’s” 🙂
Great passage to use here! Fits perfectly.
Great passage. Thanks for sharing that one, Tami!
It is a constant wrestle for me. I believe 100% in the sovereignty of God but I also believe 100% in free will also. It is a mystery and enigma that I have come to realize that I will never figure out. I am thankful for God’s sovereignty and I am thankful for free will.
Thoughtful stuff and great quotes!
I am glad I am not alone Jim. Throw in the whole election issue and it is deeper water than I care to wade into. 🙂 I, too, am thankful for His sovereignty and man’s free will. Thanks for the comment.
Thanks to Tami, I think His word’s cover it for me: “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it.”
I guess we are to go and seek Him for the good in all things…even after being in Sheol.
I should have had Tami write this post. 😛 God’s Word does say it best. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Tom.
I’ve written over and over; God either causes or allows all things. All things work together for His perfect will, His ways are higher than our ways.
We don’t know how a death is going to be used of God to bring about His will, for the ones who know Him that He takes home could be a an act of love on His part.
While difficult times are just that, who are we to question the Father who supplies breath to each of us at this very second?
i tend to agree with you Floyd. Dave Branon also writes, “Tragedy comes so God’s name can be glorified.” Thanks for a great comment.
This is a real can of worms that I have witnessed being debated on other sites. Although the idea of “free will” is comforting, there is no “Scriptural” basis for it. The lack of it, if true, brings up a multitude of questions that we cannot answer, but if God is totally sovereign, we must recognize all that it entails. Many have fallen away when faced with this reality. We must realize we do not know and can not, in this life, what God’s total plan is. He can and will do as He pleases. All we can do is have complete confidence in Him as a righteous and just God. Do we have that kind of faith?
You make a good point John, although I would disagree that it has no Scriptural basis. If it is not true, then we are nothing but puppets. I am not ready to say “God yanks my chain” whenever He wants. I also believe He is sovereign and knows the choice(s) I will make. Good to hear from you again.
The only reason why we struggle with God’s sovereignty is because we ourselves desire it. As hard and painful as it is to lose someone in such a terrible way, and when bad and unexplainable things happen, it causes us to panic because we “desire” to have the control to stop those things from happening. We can’t reconcile our feelings with reality and feel realize that the gap causes what we once thought as “control” to lose it. In essence, it’s a real and painful reminder that we have absolutely nothing in our control. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. But as the great Job once said… “blessed be the name of the LORD”
I never thought of that before Moe. But I definitely can see your point. I hate losing control of anything, especially events that directly affect those I love. Gonna have to think some more on that.
I think it’s hard to examine God’s qualities independently of the others. Yes, God is in control. But that control only begins to “feel” right to us when we also consider that God is all-wise, all-knowing, and all-loving. Remembering that helps us to look at sovereignty properly.
Very well put Loren. He is not just one and done. He is all of them at the same time. While He is merciful He is also just. That is a great point to make. Thanks.
I think we all struggle with it. We all want to wonder why. We just have to be careful to not go to extremes like God unable to do something vs. a God who does not care enough to do something. I like to think of life as a story. We know the beginning. He has written the ending and given it to us, even if we don’t know the fullness of it. We just have to trust that what goes on in the middle has everything to do with getting us to that point. That doesn’t make it easy. Sometimes, it just makes it bearable.
I like your story approach Larry. Very plain and simple to understand (and I need that). Thanks.
I don’t struggle with God’s sovereignty. I believe God doesn’t make anything happen. Good or bad. I have seen no evidence of it. To credit God for the Good things(Answered prayers for stuff) and not credit God for the bad is of course hard to explain or understand. As science expands our knowledge God is less and less the reason for things we don’t understand.
My best answer to your comment Jeff is to read some of the thoughts above expressed by others. I will disagree that science has the answers. It is almost like you are saying that the more science we have the less we need God also. if that is what you are saying then I respectfully disagree. If not, then I am misunderstanding you. I also do believe that God does make good things happen and does allow bad things to take place.
I am not saying the more science we have the less we need God. I am saying that things that God used to be credited for (i.e. floods, earthquakes, disease, droughts, volcanos, etc.)have since Biblical days been explained by science and no longer require God to be the explanation for such events.
If the reasoning is God makes good things happen and allows bad things to happen, it is an equally valid statement to say God allows good things to happen and makes bad things happen.
I just have never seen any evidence of either.
If someone needs God I am all for them having him however they want.
Gotcha Jeff. That explains things much better. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
I remember reading Piper’s words on this subject a good while back…i think it was about hurricane katrina that hit new orleans….
he goes to Luke…where the pharisis as Jesus…what about the tower that fell on such and such…(in other words…a tragedy?)
was it because of thier sins? or the sins of their fathers?…
Jesus just said to Repent for the kingdom of heaven is near…if NOT…they they will likewise parish in same manner…
I think what Jesus was saying was that Be glad that you were not there because you still have a chance to Repent…and heaven help you if you don’t take advantage of that….
at least that’s what I think about when i hear tragic stories…natural disasters and such…
i repent and get closer to HIM who made me…
The book of Job speaks alot on this as well…
Allowing tragedy to bring us closer to God is an excellent point Arny. One that I have others say: “Pain brought me to God.” Thanks for adding to the conversation.
I think, from our perspective, we cannot begin to understand God’s thinking, nor why He allows bad things to happen. Someone’s sister dies in a freak automobile accident. A godly young man stops to help a stranded person, and is instantly killed when the driver of a semi falls asleep and runs him over. My mom died of Alzheimer Disease. A child’s mother goes into a deep coma through the assistance of her ex-husband’s alcohol and her meds.
I have no answers that would humanly speaking satisfy the questions that come up. For myself, each time something like that comes up, I have to remind myself that God is God; that God is Love; that God knows what He is doing; that God has a plan.
Wondering why God does what he does is a universal question – it often comes up in literature.
“You decreed I should be what I am.
Would it spoil some vast eternal plan?
If I were a wealthy man…”
-Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof.
It’s hard to have to say, “I don’t know why.” Sometimes we find out part of what God has been doing, but often we are left in the dark.
Excellent comment Susan! I, for one, am not afraid to say, “I don’t know.” To pretend I have the answers is like playing God. I don’t want to go there! 🙂 Thanks for taking the time to give a thoughtful answer.
Gosh I love this post Bill. I was raised believing that God ‘could’ do whatever He wanted unless I stepped out of His will…unless I was lacking in my faith…
I’m a naturally uptight person and this theology tied me into a GIANT knot. I never got in the car for years without pleading the blood of Jesus on me and everyone in the car and all the other cars on the road…keep us from accidents or near-accidents…
The prayer was actually longer than that and was born of FEAR. It became almost a superstition with me…
Over the past 5 years my beliefs have changed…I still don’t understand all the pain and suffering but now I believe that
He’s in control…sometimes my feelings get hurt with God…like when my mom died suddenly because of a drug that was pulled from the market TWO months after she left us. (It was a big-pharm cover up) No, I don’t understand and I thrash wildly when I’m hurting but I trust He’s in control.
(The Husband and I disagree somewhat on this by the way 🙂 )
GREAT post my friend!
Sounds like your prayer lasted longer than my ride to work does. What an awful feeling to have that hanging over your head every time you crawled into your car. So glad things have changed for you, and I suspect some of it has been because of your understanding of God. Not that we can understand Him (Like your mom’s situation), but there is a somewhat more relaxed atmosphere. Does that make sense? I also don’t think it bothers God when we thrash. BTW: how does your husband feel about it? It is so good to hear from you Robin. Thanks.
And Bill! That was only my “car” prayer…I felt such a burden when anything went wrong with me or anyone close to me! (“If only I had more faith…if only I hadn’t neglected my prayer time…”)
Mike leaves more room for people to make choices and for God to then work within those choices…he and I aren’t so far apart but sometimes the difference is quite stark. We mostly laugh about it 🙂
Sounds like a background in the legalistic side of religion. What an awful chain around the neck! Glad you are out of that! I would probably side with Mike on this one (sorry us guys have to stick together you know?) since I too leave room for man’s choices. 🙂 Thanks for coming back.
These bad things happened to you because I intend to work it together for your good (Romans 8).
These happened so that you would rely more on God who raises the dead (2 Corinthians 1).
This happened so that the gold and silver of your faith would be refined (1 Peter 1).
This thorn is so that the power of Christ would be magnified in your weakness (2 Corinthians 12).
God cannot make plain all he is doing, because there are millions and millions and millions and millions of effects of every event in our lives, the good and the bad. God guides them all. They all have micro purposes and macro purposes. He cannot tell us all of them because our brains can’t hold all of them.
Trust does not demand more than God has told us. And he has given us immeasurably precious promises that he is in control of all things and only does good to his children. And he has given us a very thick book where we can read story after story after story about how he rules for the good of his people.
The Scripture passages are good ones Ike. I totally agree that God cannot make plain all He is doing. For the good of His people: that is what the Word says. Thanks.
BTW….if the “election” took place in eternity past…”we” were not there to cast our vote:-)
🙂