I approach this post with some “fear” and trepidation. (Yeah, I know that is a big word for me but sometimes I come up with them). So, rather than beat around the bush here it is:
I am not a deep thinker. Seriously. I think when God asked me if I wanted to be a deep thinker I must have thought He said “Depth thinker” and I said, “I’ll take mine lite.” While I like to discuss things, I can get easily lost when the subject gets to going too deep. Theology. Evidence for Christianity. Evolution vs. creation. Subjects like that. My mind is just not hard-wired that way. Numbers and figures are not my cup of tea. I have often made the comment, “The best thing that ever happened to me was a calculator.” When I was in doctrine class in college, it was like when can I leave here? Even today, discussions of free will vs. predestination and others like that leave me standing holding the (empty) bag.
So when I am told “I am a Deist” I have to shake my head. I have heard of it. Many of our country’s founding fathers were. I have one reader who has stated he is one. While I don’t always agree with his comments, I allow them because I believe in that. But this post is not in relation to him…not really. It is due to the fact that I have someone very close to me, someone I love, who is claiming to be a Deist after having served the Lord in the church. For what a Deist believes go here and here. There are many other sites (you can Google them yourself). Sounds a little bit like ancient Gnosticism.
So I find myself tied for several reasons. First, I have already told you I am not a deep thinker. I have trouble coming up with answers that I can understand and express. I have no doubt about the validity of God and His work in our lives. I have no questions about who Jesus is and His part in redemption at the cross. I believe He was divine at all times. Second, and you may find this strange, I have never questioned those truths. NEVER. I can’t say I ever had a “dark night of the soul” where I laid it on the table and said, “God if you are real I want/need to know.” Call it naivete or shallow. Matters not to me. I’ve thought it about myself. 🙂 Third, it has been said “A prophet is without honor in his own country.” That fits.
So I walk around this person with kid gloves. Careful what I say. Mindful of others it affects. So, have you ever faced a situation like this? How did you handle it? Up front: please don’t preach and berate me. I have the POWER! (think He-Man) to not approve your comment. 😉 Ironically, I would love to use this as a discussion place on subjects like Deism, but don’t think I can answer the questions adequately. Go figure.
Bill, I don’t know that I can give adequate answers. I base what I believe on what I read in the Bible. I try not to proof text, because someone can proof text me back in the opposite direction. I believe God is sovereign and predestined us. I believe we have Free Will, but not in the way most people think of it. I just don’t care about arguing those things like I used to.
Right now part of me is saying the same thing Larry. I did my share of arguing and proof texting in the past and want to move beyond that. Thanks for weighing in.
Hi Bill,
From what I read on your links here about Deism, it might be similar to humanism. The difference here between deism and humanism being that a god is acknowledged as creator. This is similar to other religions and beliefs such as the native American cultures. Their culture and religion recognizes a creator also.
Basically this person is godless, in the sense of having the God of the Bible and Jesus Christ. The reason and thinking of man is their god. In essence a god created in their thinking, but man rules and runs his own life. Deism tries to get it’s moral teachings from nature. The links you provide however, say that nature cannot provide man with moral teaching and guidance. How true.
This person values reason and intellect above everything else. This is his/her god. You’re basically dealing with an unbeliever. The creator god they speak about is not the Creator God of the Bible.
I have a daughter-in-law who believes in the yoga religious teachings and beliefs. I haven’t crossed this bridge yet with her. I witness occasionally but just found out that she has formally stated her beliefs as ‘another world’ and that this has has opened her eyes 🙂 This is nothing to laugh about but it has its humor.
What to do? I guess be sensitive, but don’t compromise Jesus Christ. He’s Lord and I think this is what this individual needs to know about where you are coming from. It’s hard if we care too much. Hold our families and loved ones with kid gloves. Not too close to the chest. Love them, but be ready to let them go. They have to make their own decisions and we have to make ours. This fact may take us in different directions.
We don’t sacrifice ourselves for disobedient and ungodly people, we sacrifice ourselves for obedient and godly people. We owe it to these to stand firm in our faith and our trust in God. Come what may.
God be our helper and hope.
Sensitive without compromise. That is the right approach I think. Thanks for your thoughts.
I am a scientist and look to clear analytical proof in all aspects of my work. Before I publish anything it goes through multiple rounds of detailed peer review where my findings are questioned and put to the test. I am afraid the Bible is not something that can be put to the scientific method. The only reason my faith survives is because I have a relationship with Christ. There are several instances in my life when I believe Christ acted in a way that was clear to me. On these instances I hang the hat of my faith.
That said, I have always appreciated how fair and nonjudgmental you are when someone does not support your beliefs or your point. I think that only helps the discussion.
Glad you have that relationship with Jesus. You are definitely light years ahead of me in thinking Daniel and I respect you for that. Thanks for the kind words. I do hope my blog is what you picture. Thanks for taking part today.
As one of the referenced Deists I suppose I should weigh in. I agree with Daniel that you are fair in how you allow diverse opinion and that it helps the discussion.
As a Deist I am not trying to argue that I am right or that anyone else should adopt my belief. It’s just what makes sense to me.
Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc all have disagreements themselves on what the Bible, Torah, or Quran even means. Thus we have many denominations, Shia vs. Sunni, and orthodox vs. non orthodox within the same religion.
We all should just be trying to live in peace and harmony and religion is often the basis for confrontation. Be it Protestants and Catholics in Ireland, Shia and Sunnis in the middle east, Christians and Muslims in the Crusades. I don’t really think who’s God is real and who’s is not is worth all the killing and prejudice it spawns.
It is not a subject that anyone can be 100% sure of.
To think a person is Godless or without morals because they don’t beleive a certain way is silly.
I do value thought and reason highly and base morality on Common Sense. (Not by studying Squirrels and ants.) I don’t think you need the Bible to know that killing, stealing, or messing with the neighbor’s wife is not good.
I think all beliefs should be respected as a personal choice, and a person should be judged on their actions and not on what they believe.
I am thankful our Deist forefathers had the good sense to create a democracy that values liberty and forbids religious doctrine from the public square.
Jeff,
Killing, stealing, and messing with the neighbors wife is the problems in our society today. We in North America have left the God of the Bible which began in earnest around the 1960’s. We see the result of this action in our countries of the USA and Canada after 40 years or so.
Actions do speak louder than words.
Linda
Not sure Linda, how this goes with Jeff’s comment. He is saying lying, killing, etc are wrong. He is just saying with or without the Bible. ‘Course Paul does say he would not have known coveting was wrong if not for the Law.
To Jeff’s comment: See, this is what I was talking about. I disagree with some of what you say but find myself inadequate in responding. Know what I mean? No doubt disagreements are part and parcel of life together. Shoot, even families prove that. Let alone adding in cultural differences, pressure, etc. But at the same time I believe strongly in the God of the Bible as the One True God. So I, by choice, choose to stand up for Him. While I respect another person’s right to hold their own beliefs, I also want them to know I disagree and have the “right” to hold to mine. Try that philosophy in a Muslim country. Also, while I do agree with your statement about killing, etc I do think that just leaving it to Common Sense can cause trouble because of the ability to become “hard.” our prisons are filled with people who have reached that point. Thanks Jeff for sharing your thoughts as my “resident” Deist. 🙂
By all means you have a right to your beliefs. A right disagree with others at will. No need to compromise your beliefs. And the right to enjoy the religious freedom our democracy insures without having to adhere to anyone’s doctrine. Freedom of religion is also freedom from religion. I don’t want anyones belief forcing me to believe.
I am not sure the prison population is a good example of people with common sense.
I was using the prison population as an example that we can tell ourselves something is okay or good when it isn’t. Do something enough it becomes easier to convince ourselves of that. that is why I don’t think we can make good moral decisions without some guide.
Having reviewed the links on Deism, and from some of the discussion here… I would have fallen into this category through my late teen years. I believed in the existance of “God” but felt that we were left to our own devices on how things were done.
That changed drastically in Oct of 1996…. I won’t go into the details, but my world was turned upside down. I come to realize that I was missing that could not be filled with scientific explanation, (though there is plenty of evidence for the existance of Jesus and that he is who he says he is)…
Some things come to mind…
Deism would appear to be very subjective based on what someone feels. The world and universe have natural laws, however, the laws of mankind can be very subjective.
With the order of the universe, I would ultimately have to believe that a creator would desires a similar order in the lives of the people he created, not something subjective. I think that is the purpose of the Bible and the teachings in it.
I can’t imagine a creator creating something and then just sitting back and letting things run its course without any involvment.
I think we have freewill to choose and to make decisions and those decisions impact others. Sometimes the impact is HUGE.
I can definitely understand how one would think deism is a logical explanation on the surface. I was there. For me, It just left too many questions unanswered.
Wow! Where have you been? LOL Actually, if I had known and understood Deism more when we first talked I probably could have gotten this great answer then. 🙂 I think your reasonings are valid and worthy of consideration. Thanks Ryan for helping out (especially me).
In a world like ours it’s easy to believe that God got the whole thing started and then walked away from it.
But the cross says something else. That God’s love and His desire to love and save sinners is resale and ever present.
He said “Lo, I am with you until the end of the age.”
He will never leave us nor forsake us, despite the trials and tribulations going on inside of us and around us.
We take that on faith…not by sight.
Thanks, Bill.
Truth: your first two lines. I can’t get away from that. Taking things on faith is sometimes hard. Thanks for the input Steve.
The part I find most fascinating is that the people who call themselves anything is based on what? I believe it’s how they want to feel or how they think things should be. Even from a scientific or mathematical point of view, the prophecy of Christ in the OT and the number of things, over 700 references, makes it impossible to be anything short of a miracle…. the very hand of God.
To see all the prophecy of old and the promises swore to the descendants of Abraham coming true in the modern world only takes a little searching of scripture.
The very history of the world is recorded in the book called the Bible and science can’t refute it, in fact it proves it. The problem is that we, like Eve, want to be “as God’s.” If we can make the absolute call of what or who is good enough, based on our opinion and common sense, then we are taking the role of God. If we take that role as being capable of judging what it is that is exactly good enough, then we too should be able to make the call of a god and decide to live forever… If we can’t make that call, I suggest we search for Truth.
I could go on with this type of stuff forever. In the end, it becomes a matter of knowing the Bible well enough to answer the questions or statements made by a world enlightened of their flesh, but these discussions done with respect are good ones to have.
you make some good points Floyd, points that can’t be taken lightly. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
Based on my belief, any who do not follow the One True God as put forth in the Bible is condemned.
Based on my belief, I cannot help but share what I have accepted as truth with those around me in the hopes that they too will accept the Truth and escape condemnation.
Based on my belief, there are many who will choose not to believe. I cannot force them to do otherwise. I am to love them even as I mourn their choice. I am to continue to be a witness of the Truth even though it causes me to be rejected by them.
No doubt where you stand Dusty…and that is good. 🙂 Thanks for your honesty brought to this post. Your last paragraph shows your heart.
That’s a tough question Bill. If someone who has served the Lord makes the decision that they are a deist now, I would think that some event or some person affected that person to make them think that God cannot be involved in the world to allow that to happen.
I have had questions about my faith and many have not been answered yet but I seem to come back to this:
66. As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67. So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”
68. Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69. “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” John 6: 66-69
I know that isn’t warm and fuzzy but sometimes all you have to fall back on is “where else am I to go?” Then you can remember how God has been faithful and is just no matter what it looks like on the outside.
That’s all I’ve got. I will pray for you and your loved one.
Sometimes warm and fuzzy isn’t what is needed DJ. I am of the opinion, as I know you are, there is not place else to go. Thanks for a good word. And for your prayers.
Hi Bill,
your say in your post ‘Many of our country’s founding fathers were’ (deists). I think I disagree. People of that era knew and acknowledged the God of the Bible as the one true God. There were very few people who had other religions. Most people immigrating to our countries of USA and Canada came from Europe. Many because of religious persecution against God’s ‘way’ in Europe and other countries at that time.
Any people without the true God of that day believed in preference or inequality of men. Our founding fathers believed men to be ‘equal under God and the law.’
At least this is what I understood.
Ben Franklin. Thomas Jefferson. George Washington. Thomas Paine (although he may not classify). So I respectfully disagree with you Linda. The Pilgrims weren’t, but they weren’t the founding fathers either.
Hi Bill
Deism on site: http://islamforwest.org/2011/12/31/deism-liberal-protestantism-or-natural-religion/
“To look for common thread between the Christian and the Muslim tradition one should start at Deism”.
From what I can learn today, deism is not godly. Their god is not our god. How many founding fathers were there? Any 4 of them who were not Christian does not conclude that the Constitution of the USA originated and was formed by those proclaiming to be deists.
Just some thoughts from me Bill. I think deists are enemies of the cross of Jesus Christ and ought to be regarded that way. This does not mean ‘hate’ this means ‘be careful’ of what these people say and espouse. Thinking people can rationalize and justify almost anything by their words and supposed ‘common sense’.
The devil is no slouch. He knows how to talk the talk, just not walk the walk. He has no desire or intent to ‘walk the walk’ either. He enjoys wickedness. Deceiving and manipulating and confusing believers is an age old strategy of his.
The Bible is clear. ALL good things originate and come from God. Without the God of the Bible there is no goodness… to be had.
Linda: I was not saying that our Constitution is invalid but making the point that “many” (the word I used) of our founding fathers were deists. Do I know the exact number? No I don’t. Deist or not. God-fearing or not. Followers of God or not. The Constitution is a document par excellence.
I hope you found your fear and trepidation was unwarranted. I enjoyed the comments and find you to be a skilled moderator. I don’t think any minds were changed, no Mosques were blown up, or Temples set on fire, or hate crimes committed.
Peace, Harmony and Goodwill to all
I did Jeff. And I thank you for your kind words. I hope others learned and benefited from the discussion.
I’m by no means a deep thinker or a good discussion type person, all I know is that God is involved in my life, to deny that would be an outrageous statement for me personally to make. It is not my job on earth to judge anyone who believes other things, it’s my job to model my life after Christ. 🙂
Simple and to the point. Thanks Jan. You are on the money.
Bill,
Here’s another site for deism,
http://www.deism.com/challengetochristians.htm
“An Open Deist Challenge to Christians”
Linda
Thanks.
The sentence below from Techgeek is my sentence.
I believed in the existance of “God” but felt that we were left to our own devices on how things were done. ( Techgeek)
Thats exactly where I was before salvation at 35, thinking I could survive hell. I read different takes on “religion and studied astrology for a while but was lost in my sin and would have went to hell if I had died before putting my faith in Christ and His finished work. Life was all about me, not Him. Now my life is hid in Christ and HE LIVES IN ME. Wow just typing those words send shivers through me. What finally won me be to Christ was reading the old testement like you read a history book or any book, start from the beginning. I was over whelmed by God”s active participation in the Jew lives. His love for them. I read that old testement for four years, I was a hard one, a survivor, or so I thought. I was not won by a fear of going to hell, but the active love of a Holy almighty awesome God. Thats about as deep and wide as I can go brother and there I stand.
I love being near the last to respond, I am fired up by the time I get through reading and put my old fingers to the keys. By the way I think you are a skilled moderator too. Just look at all you drew out from us. Blessing.
That was a good statement from Ryan (techgeek). Interesting that reading the OT led you you a decision for Jesus. Thanks for your kind words Betty and for coming by.
I’m pretty simple minded,too. I just can’t imagine why a god would create all this and then leave. Where did He go and what is He doing now? Way too many unanswered questions for me. Now, my God? I may not always understand what He’s doing (if I did He wouldn’t be God,) but I believe HE knows what He’s doing. And being God, I can trust that. Pretty simple, huh?
I like that Karen!