HHHHHHHEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!! The ink is barely dry on the last post and I am already screaming for more help. No, this is not a “the sky is falling” thing. It really is a legitimate desire to know something. So, if you can help or want to put in your two cents worth then please feel free to do so.
Many will think my post on love shows some dubious Greek knowledge. Well…you ain’t seen nothing until you get a load of my Hebrew (un)knowledge. 🙂 I am reading through the Bible using the ESV OneYearBible with the folks from OVCF. I have read through both testaments before and admittedly have read the Newer one more often than the Older one. And I also admit that sometimes reading through parts of the Older one has been a yawnfest. But using the OneYearBible has helped slow me down and given me some time to think. I read something Tuesday that has stewed in me. I am not sure I have come up with an adequate answer. In I Samuel 9:12 it says that “the people have a sacrifice today on the high place.” There is no question that God is behind that and gives His okay. Seems to me that the high places were used for worship before the Temple. But if you read on into the life of the kings, Jeroboam, Solomon’s son, allowed and encouraged the high places to become places where false worship was offered (I Kings 12:32; 2 Kings 23:15). From that time on the high places seemed to be an albatross around the neck of the Israelites. Countless times, even though religious reform took place, the high places were allowed to remain as areas of false worship. The other day while reading, a passage struck me and gave me pause to think: 2 Chronicles 33:17- “Nevertheless, the people still sacrificed at the high places, but only to the Lord their God.” Read the context of that passage and you will find it involved Manasseh, Hezekiah’s evil son, who had become king and undid all his father had reformed UNTIL he was taken captive. We are told in 2 Chron.33:12 he was in distress and appealed to God and humbled himself before God. God restored him and Manasseh went about undoing all his evil, which included converting the high places back to the original intent of worship to God.
My questions are many (my “answers” are in green). Why the high places to start with? My guess is for those who could not make it to Jerusalem? Why were they not destroyed when the Temple was built, especially since the Temple was to be where God lived? Why did Solomon allow them to remain? Did he feel his job was done or was it because of the evil of his heart brought on by his many wives and concubines that he didn’t care? Why was evil worship allowed to take place? Was it a matter of convenience or did the king just not care? (It does show how something intended for good can turn into something bad). When the kings made reforms, why did they allow the high places to remain? We certainly can’t judge and say their repentant heart was not real. There are more but one final one: What is the significance of saying what it did about the high places during Manasseh’s repentance? I don’t have the answer for that one.
So, do you? Do you have an answer? Perhaps more significant is this: do you/I have high places in our lives where we offer up false worship because we have lost our way? God does not live in a temple made with hands (hence we should not call the church building “the church” or “the sanctuary”) but He lives and abides in His people…the church. Again, another incomplete post but one I want you to feel free to jump right in on to comment. One sad side comment: Manasseh’s son, Amon, reverted back to life before. It took Josiah to tear down the high places (2 Chron.34:3). Let me hear your thoughts if you have any. 🙂
my initial reaction is that this is a lot nonsensical babble
bill, i don’t have all (or many) of the answers. but the good news is it shouldn’t take us much hebrew to understand them. [which, typically, i believe is the case — that we don’t often need the original language to understand a text or passage…] because, while i took hebrew in school, i didn’t give it the attention it deserved and can just barely read it now — and by read it, i don’t mean understand it. i mean pronounce the words.
my understanding of the origin of the high places is that when israel was separated, the northern kingdom became israel and the southern became judah. jerusalem was in judah, and israel’s king at the time (no idea who) was afraid his people would defect to judah when going to worship at the temple in the south. so he made some golden calves (we’ve seen that before) and put them on the high places so his people could worship. i think he made a lot of other altars in other high places, too, but i’m not sure.
and if i’m correct, the high places weren’t “installed” until AFTER the temple was built. so solomon could not have destroyed them.
also, throughout history, high places have been associated with gods and worship of many religions and groups. there has always been an “obsession” with high places and mountains. think everything from the tower of babel to youth groups climbing mountains in colorado as a religious experience.
all of this is interesting in light of john 4, where the samaritan woman at the well asks about worship on the mountain or in jerusalem.
bill, you got me thinking… what lessons can be learned from the establishment of the high places in israel? it seems to me the king of israel (jeroboam — looked it up, 1 kings 12ish) is concerned with keeping his citizens, and is willing to change the God they worship in order to do so.
i think the most direct lesson for church leaders today is to look at the gospel we preach and the God we present, and ask ourselves these questions: are we in any way changing the message to attract or keep members? am i giving an accurate portrayal of God and his desires to this group, or am i playing to the crowd? are numbers more important than the glory of God?
Jeff: ??????
James: My reference to Hebrew was what “high place” meant and was there any significance in it. As for when: it seems, according to the passage in I Sam.9 I mention that the high places were there during the time of Samuel/Saul. Maybe I am missing something? There is no question that Jeroboam “made” them places of false worship. Hadn’t thought about the history but am really intrigued by your mention of the Samaritan woman in John 4. I had totally forgotten that one. Thanks for the input.
James: I mentioned Jeroboam in I Kings 12 and I think you are right about his motives. But I think the real key is your questions in the last paragraph. Probing and ones every church leader needs to confront in themselves. Thanks.
yeah, bill, i think i read the post too quickly. i missed the 1 sam 9 text — or i missed putting it together on a timeline.
i read that the hebrew word for high place there is “bamah,” and means “high place.” but when used in prose it almost always means “high place of worship.” [disclaimer: i know nothing about the hebrew behind this, and only looked it up on wikipedia.]
but, yeah, my guess is people worshiped in high places all along, because of the perception that it would be closer to God (or their gods). [we still do it today to some extent.]
[off-topic pondering: you think this has anything to do with the tower of babel? i was taught when i was little that they were trying to build the tower high to reach God. but scripture says they wanted to reach the heavens in order to make a name for themselves.]
James: Your explanation certainly makes a whole lot of sense (Paragraph #3)
Off-topic pondering: Now you have gone and done it…opened up another can of worms. 😛 I too was always taught the former but can see the latter is Scriptural. Makes me wonder about “making a name for themselves.” Was/is this a reference to stealing God’s glory by their achievement?
As always thanks for your input. I deeply appreciate it. I look forward to hearing from others on this as well. (Maybe they will agree with us?) 🙂
Bill,
A Greek or Hebrew scholar? No not me! But I know that God is teaching us all to pursue Him with all we have…keep pressing in Bro’! Sorry I’m no help on those meaty questions of yours.
God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. John 4: 24
Bill, thanks for coming by and commenting on my blog! You bring up some good, thoughtful points here that I haven’t contemplated before (I’ve been in Ezra-Nehemiah as of late.) I’ll be seeing you around!
don’t have the answers to all questions, but here’s an attempt…
Why the high places to start with?
I think (and this is not based on the Bible or anything but personal opinion) that high places were used as a place of worship because back in those times the view of the Earth was that it is flat and there’s a dome of heaven over it… and above that dome is God. To be on a high place made you sort of closer to God (we still think that… at least I do, even though I do know that He’s not there, but rather close to me)…
Why did Solomon allow them to remain?
Well, he had lots of wives / “porcupines” (aka concubines) who worshipped other gods… I guess he allowed those “high places” to remain because his wives were using those. Once again proves why a man should have only ONE wife (but that’s a sideline comment).
Jay: Good advice i.e. “pursue Him in all we do.” Thanks.
Matt: thanks for visiting mine. Hope to see you again and hearing you share your wisdom. I have yours in my google reader so will be visiting yours. 🙂
Zee: The first answer seems to be on the money as well as the second. I thought that might be the case with Solomon but couldn’t seem to find when he started with the many wives I came up blank. Sure makes sense though. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
Hi cycleguy,
Are we seeing some of God’s grace in the Old Testament example in Chronicles, regarding the High Places?
The only thought that I have is the one where the Pharisees are questioning Jesus about divorce. Is it lawful? They say, ‘Moses said to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away’.
Jesus responds and says that Moses gave them this commandment(of a divorce certificate)because of the hardness of their hearts. But that God’s intent was for a man to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. And the two would become one flesh.
There seems to be other examples of God’s grace in the Old Testament as well. David ate the ‘shew bread’ that was only lawful for the priests to eat when he was running from Saul with a handful of men. He gave the ‘shew bread’ to his men to eat as well. This act was certainly against the command, ordinances, and statutes of God as the priests understood them to be.
David also established his Tent of Worship at Jerusalem at the same time that the Wilderness Tabernacle of Worship that Moses built was on a another mountain in Israel. I forget where it was located now.
Maybe what we are seeing is that there is some movement with God? Even under the Old Testament Law. This movement seems to be allowed based on the needs of human beings.
Psalm 8:4 What is man that you are mindful of him? or the son of man that you care for him? You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor.
Bill, I’ve been thinking on this one for the last 24 hours. I’m still not sure how to answer. Thanks for getting the wheels to turn.
Hi cycleguy,
I been thinking of this great song by Chris Tomlin ‘Amazing Grace (my chains are gone)’
part of this song reads,
My chains are gone I’ve been set free
My God, my Savior has ransomed me And like a flood His mercy rains Unending love, Amazing grace.
My brain is tired and if I had a functioning brain cell, I would add something intelligent to this, but I don’t. So I’ll just say hi. Love ya. Have a great day and I hope you get your answers 🙂
Hey Michelle: thanks for dropping in anyway…tired or not. 😛
Linda: I am going to plead ignorance here so bear with me. I am lost on the grace things having to do with the high places. They were places of worship but I don’t see God’s grace exhibited in them. Feel free to correct me or to help me see clearer.
Michael: just don’t burn too much rubber. If you are like me you can’t afford too much loss. 😛
I know I’m coming into this a little late. I just happened to have read 1 Sam 8 yesterday and chapter 9 this morning so I wanted to read it first (not that I have much to add).
It always seems that false worship copies true worship so it doesn’t surprise me that both true worship and false worship could take place in a high place. I’m sure this is unrelated but even before Israel, Noah built an altar on the mountain (probably because he was already there), and Abraham was sent to sacrifice his son on a mountain. Also, God blessed Elijah’s worship of him when he took on the priest’s of Baal (that was on a mountain, right?)
God created sacrifice & worship, man distorted it.
1 Sam 8 & 9 really got my attention because the people really insulted God by demanding a king to be like the other nations. The thing that got my attention was that God gave his “ok” for the process instead of turning them into a bunch of greasy spots in the ground. Then He gave the people who THEY were looking for in a king – tall, strong and handsome, etc…
Maybe the Israelites wouldn’t have accepted David without Saul.
I had to think about how many times I have insulted God when I want or demand something so I can be like everyone else or for some other reason instead of accepting what He has in store for me by His plan.
WOW Jim! What a fantastic addition to this conversation. It is too bad that you weren’t able to get into it sooner because I think it would have helped some but also stir some thoughts. I love what you said about the worship aspect. Your final paragraph is priceless. Thanks.
Hi cycleguy,
God created worship and sacrifice. Heb 10:7 Then I said, ‘Here I am–it is written about me in the scroll–I have come to do your will, O God’.
Eventually the whole sacrifice and offering system was replaced or (fulfilled) by God with a much better,complete, and final sacrifice for sin. It changed the way we worship God. It changed our whole relationship with God.
God likely allowed the Israelites to continue with the worship in High Places because of their insistence to be like other nations around them. I think this is partly what Jeff is saying. Just like Moses allowed the Israelites to divorce their wives with a Certificate of divorce instead of demanding that they be a one lifetime marriage partner as was intended by God.
My interpretation of what Jeff is partly saying in his reply is that because the people would not obey God, he allowed them what they wanted, but their choice was a poor substitue and greatly diminished from what God had ordained and purposed for them at that time. In fact the High Places became a snare and a stumbling block for the Israelites in their ability to be worshipers of the LORD only.
I think this is what I was meaning by ‘grace’. God allowed the High Places but they were not his provision. In fact, the High Places were a choice not made by God but made by the people.
God allows us choice. Maybe one of the lessons here in Chronicles is that we may get stubborn with God and get what we want,
but if we listen to and trust God’s direction and purpose for our lives it will be so much better and glorious than our own ‘seemingly wise’ choices?
Linda: thanks for the clarification. It helps.